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Tony-OH

Turgeon is just awful and his team is suffering because of it

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If there is a worse last minute of a game team than Maryland I'd like to know. Another turnover fest especially late in the game, unbelievably poor free throw shooting, and more mind-boggling poor out of timeout plays by Turgeon's squad. They would have been blown out if not for Huerter shooting the lights out.

Raise your hand if you were happy to see Turgeon call that last timeout? Why would anyone want this guy drawing up anything. Out of the last time out they throw the ball around a bunch of times on the outside until with seven seconds left Cowan goes in for a drive and loses the ball ala Trimble.

Now the Terps hung in there despite the fact that Syracuse easily outmanned them, but only because Huerter was hitting shots almost from half court. I literally think Turgeon's entire offensive plays consists of pick and rolls to the center, inside out three point shots that are usually contested and telling whoever his point guard is to throw the ball around until you get to 9 seconds then drive.

Now, the Terps big men are awful outside of Bruno and Bruno is still a bit raw with finishing plays and definitely a poor free throw shooter. But who's fault is that? Checko is still as awful as he was when he got here with stone hands, no rebounding ability, and a sever lack of presence in the middle. Bender should not even be playing D-I and Obi is nothing more than a body to put in for a few minutes.

Defensively this team is awful against anyone who can drive to the Morsell may be the only good one on one defender and he's still a bit raw as a Freshman. Again, who recruited these guys? How can you not find a decent rebounder? A decent defender? Or even a true ball handler?

Trimble was a below average passer for a PG and Cowan is just sloppy and not a great ball handler either. He certainly can't guard.

This team might not make the tourney this year. 

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So I was  watching this game on DVR and  wanted to see if anybody was posting about it and then saw this,  realized the game was over by the time I was reading this and said uh oh.   

Can't say a whole lot in disagreement, except that I do think they will be a tourney team and I still feel like they could even be a sweet 16 or better team if they can get the ball control under control.   

And this was the third game in four days and in my opinion the defense really looked sluggish.   I do wonder if they were worn down a little.  

And once again Justin Jackson disappeared,  granted their approach to the zone did not give him a whole lot to work with, but still expect a little more than what he put on the floor on offense tonight, for someone who is absolutely expected to go to the NBA next year. 

I have always felt like a couple tough losses early in the year can be effective for developing a college basketball team, hopefully that was the case tonight  

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2 hours ago, murph said:

So I was  watching this game on DVR and  wanted to see if anybody was posting about it and then saw this,  realized the game was over by the time I was reading this and said uh oh.   

Can't say a whole lot in disagreement, except that I do think they will be a tourney team and I still feel like they could even be a sweet 16 or better team if they can get the ball control under control.   

And this was the third game in four days and in my opinion the defense really looked sluggish.   I do wonder if they were worn down a little.  

And once again Justin Jackson disappeared,  granted their approach to the zone did not give him a whole lot to work with, but still expect a little more than what he put on the floor on offense tonight, for someone who is absolutely expected to go to the NBA next year. 

I have always felt like a couple tough losses early in the year can be effective for developing a college basketball team, hopefully that was the case tonight  

What we're seeing with Jackson is the Turgeon development plan. Peak as a Freshman, go down hill afterwards. I really don't dislike the talent on the team as much as i think Turgeon just wastes it. Listened to the commentators after the game and they basically can't figure out what the heck Turgeon was doing in the end, including not having a center fielder on the last play. These former coaches are at a loss with the way Turgeon coaches during games. 

This team has tourney talent, but Turgeon will cost them enough winable games that the team will probably sneak in and get taken out in the first round once again. Turgeon can only take a team so far and his lack of in game coaching will always put the Terps at a disadvantage.

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How much longer can we expect Turgeon to be at the helm of this ship, until they decide enough is enough?

I know they signed him to a 4 year extension last year.

But Plank and the other alumni spenders can't be happy with what they are selling.

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Agree with the majority of the opening post, especially regarding the awful possession at the end after the timeout.

The only thing I'll disagree with, Cowan is a good perimeter defender.  He had a bad game last night as Syracuse's bigger guards abused him, but by and large he's been really good defensively, certainly much better than Trimble.

But generally, yes, new season, a few new faces, same Terps.  High floor but low ceiling.

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I agree on a lot of points about Turgeon, he is what he is pretty much know what you're getting. Good recruiter, lack of in-game coaching abilities (although up until this year I actually always thought we were excellent on an offensive possession after any timeout). He is the opposite of Gary so tough to take, Gary was frustrating/lacking in other ways though. Too many turnovers but it's what we do, that goes back before T. Some of that and the free throw shooting can be put on him but I don't agree that all of it does. Cowan basically dribbled the ball off his foot the one late turnover, thats just embarrassing and 100% on him, it happens. Some of it is just the players too coming up small at the end of the game as well and just being sloppy with the ball on their own. I actually think this team is very similar to a lot of Gary's teams but Gary would have this team improving through out the year at a much better rate than Turgeon will, that is the difference between the two. Gary wouldn't have this much talent on the team though. Can't have it all I guess - only a few coaches out there that I think are really good in-game and recruiters. I'm also not a big believer in free throw shooting has much to do with the coach, we missed a lot down the stretch, we practice them a million times as much as anyone I'm sure, players have to make them.

I liked Huerter taking the really deep 3 late when we were down, they give you that shot and I hate the quick 2, if you're going to come back you need to make up some ground, too many teams fall in love with the quick 2 but are just prolonging the eventual loss. Huerter played his usual good game, we needed that against Bonaventure would've easily won but you're gonna have your off games. I don't have much thought on the deep lay-up given up, thats on Turgeon. However, I also believe someone was in the wrong spot and the players should know what to do there regardless and they were mistaken.

 

 

Strategy Conversation: Does anyone agree with Syracuse missing the free throw on purpose up 2 with 0.7 seconds left? You see it a lot and don't get me wrong I understand what they are thinking but I just completely disagree with that and always have. Tons of teams do it and they have coaches a million times smarter than me so I guess its correct it just blows my mind. I'm not claiming to be smarter than any of them. If Huerter hits that miracle full court shot we win. I know that missing the free throw gives us a 'worse shot' but its a prayer either way. We're going to get a full court shot more than likely anyway. I just always think, if they hit a miraculous 3 with less than a second left I at least would like it to take us to OT and not lose the game. I don't know I just always think about it at the end when I see that done and didn't know if others shared the same thought.

 

 

Edited by scbalt52

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2 hours ago, glenn__davis said:

Agree with the majority of the opening post, especially regarding the awful possession at the end after the timeout.

The only thing I'll disagree with, Cowan is a good perimeter defender.  He had a bad game last night as Syracuse's bigger guards abused him, but by and large he's been really good defensively, certainly much better than Trimble.

But generally, yes, new season, a few new faces, same Terps.  High floor but low ceiling.

But that's a continual problem with him, he can't defend bigger guards and most guards he will see in the Big-10 will be bigger than him. The effort is there, but his size is a disadvantage and when a team has a good big guard they will eat him up unless Turgeon switches Morsell over to guard them.

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12 minutes ago, scbalt52 said:

Can't have it all I guess - only a few coaches out there that I think are really good in-game and recruiters. I'm also not a big believer in free throw shooting

 

 

I'm not so sure. There are plenty of perennial top 25 teams with coaches that seem to be able to do both. Although I do think Turgeon has brought in some good talent, he has brought in a lot of the same kinds of guys who are these combo players rather than guys who excel in certain areas. The point guards he brings in are guys who either have size issues (Cowan) or aren't great ball handlers/passes (Trimble, Morsell, and every backup he's ever brought in). They are good shooters, rebound well for their size, will give effort on the defensive side, but are average ball handlers and passers at best. Outside of Len (Williams began the recruiting but Tuegeon closed it), Bruno and maybe Stone (though his lack of character should have been a red flag), he's a terrible big man recruiter. Checko and Bender are awful and the fact that he's six years into his time here and still needs to go out and find a body like Obi to take minutes tells you about his big men. 

I think we all seems to think Turgeon is this great recruiter, but what has his recruiting done for he program? The team is still not in the top 25, he's not put anyone into the NBA who has become a quality starter, and worse of all we have only one sweet 16 and one round of 32 appearance under him in six years.

On top of this, what player came to Maryland and then left much better? Seems like most of his players stagnate. i can't imagine that's going to help his recruiting in the future as this reputation starts to get around. 

Sure, he has a young team and if they stick together maybe they can overcome his deficiencies as a coach and do something, but at the end of the day, this team loses winnable close games because of Turgeon's lack of in game coaching and adjustments. 

I was not happy when the University gave him an extension, but I doubt they will make any changes since he has a young team with some talent . i just don't see this program ever being at the level it should be with Turgeon at the helm.

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2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I'm not so sure. There are plenty of perennial top 25 teams with coaches that seem to be able to do both. Although I do think Turgeon has brought in some good talent, he has brought in a lot of the same kinds of guys who are these combo players rather than guys who excel in certain areas. The point guards he brings in are guys who either have size issues (Cowan) or aren't great ball handlers/passes (Trimble, Morsell, and every backup he's ever brought in). They are good shooters, rebound well for their size, will give effort on the defensive side, but are average ball handlers and passers at best. Outside of Len (Williams began the recruiting but Tuegeon closed it), Bruno and maybe Stone (though his lack of character should have been a red flag), he's a terrible big man recruiter. Checko and Bender are awful and the fact that he's six years into his time here and still needs to go out and find a body like Obi to take minutes tells you about his big men. 

I think we all seems to think Turgeon is this great recruiter, but what has his recruiting done for he program? The team is still not in the top 25, he's not put anyone into the NBA who has become a quality starter, and worse of all we have only one sweet 16 and one round of 32 appearance under him in six years.

On top of this, what player came to Maryland and then left much better? Seems like most of his players stagnate. i can't imagine that's going to help his recruiting in the future as this reputation starts to get around. 

Sure, he has a young team and if they stick together maybe they can overcome his deficiencies as a coach and do something, but at the end of the day, this team loses winnable close games because of Turgeon's lack of in game coaching and adjustments. 

I was not happy when the University gave him an extension, but I doubt they will make any changes since he has a young team with some talent . i just don't see this program ever being at the level it should be with Turgeon at the helm.

That's the biggest knock, and a big one at that. Hard to disagree with anything you're saying, not really saying that I am. I think you see the program as one that should be a top tier program every year, and while that is definitely possible given the talent in the area, I'm not sure it can be consistently. Obviously we're never going to be Kentucky/Duke/UNC/Kansas, even that next tier I don't see us, but we should be better than we've been since the championship. We should be getting some deeper runs in tourneys here and there. And I guess I just see Turgeon as a better recruiter than Gary, more so than great recruiter overall and that being one of his strengths vs. in-game coaching.

 

On 24/7 we've been ranked 69, 13, 45, 13, 55, 13, and this year 52 (which is odd because Morsell and Fernando seem as good as anyone we've had). Rankings don't mean everything, and honestly not as high as I thought, but some pretty good classes. It would be hard to ever crack top 10, we should be able to pull a top 25 every year, although thats not an easy challenge even given our area. Then the rest is on the players panning out, coaching, development, etc. We have a stud class coming in next year but this one has to develop more and Jackson is likely gone (even though he shouldn't be). We're at a frustrating position.

Edited by scbalt52

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People took Melo for granted. Yes, he had some issues but in tight games guy knew had to win. Does anyone really have any confidence in Cowan? He's a turnover waiting to happen. Take Melo's three years away, does Turgeon make the tournament in his six years here? I'm going with "no."

Mentioned it here before but all you need to know about Turgeon is he has never beaten a major conference team in the tournament. Guy simply cannot coach. Doesn't develop anyone. Zero offensive game plan that can't be outcoached by basically anyone with half a brain.

The problem is he recruits enough talent and the non conference schedule is garbage enough for us to win 20 games almost by default. Not sure how you get rid of this guy.

 

 

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The in-game coaching and lack of creativity from Turgeon leaves a lot to be desired, but the future of this team is bright IMO. Turgeon is stacking so much talent that there's no way we won't have good teams over the next few years unless a bunch of guys leave.  Two four stars and a five star coming in next year.  

We are a very young team.  The expectations can't be too high.  I didn't expect to beat Syracuse on the road. 

Turgeon has been fooling around with different lineups but I think the best starting five going forward is: Cowan, Huerter, Morsell, Jackson, and Fernando.  These are clearly our five best players and need to be pulling the majority of the minutes. 

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19 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

What we're seeing with Jackson is the Turgeon development plan. Peak as a Freshman, go down hill afterwards. I really don't dislike the talent on the team as much as i think Turgeon just wastes it. Listened to the commentators after the game and they basically can't figure out what the heck Turgeon was doing in the end, including not having a center fielder on the last play. These former coaches are at a loss with the way Turgeon coaches during games. 

This team has tourney talent, but Turgeon will cost them enough winable games that the team will probably sneak in and get taken out in the first round once again. Turgeon can only take a team so far and his lack of in game coaching will always put the Terps at a disadvantage.

Keith Cavanaugh  was just on the Fan and did not directly go after the coaching but pointed at several issues. I think he sees it too and I agree for in game coaching Turgeon lacks what Gary Williams had in spades. Too bad we can't do some kind of scientific experiment and meld the two guys together! 

 

And as there's probably no surprise to anyone, he is fairly certain that Bruno will be one and done.    But he has quickly become my second favorite player on the team and will be a lot of fun to watch for the one! 

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3 minutes ago, murph said:

Keith Cavanaugh  was just on the Fan and did not directly go after the coaching but pointed at several issues. I think he sees it too and I agree for in game coaching Turgeon lacks what Gary Williams had in spades. Too bad we can't do some kind of scientific experiment and meld the two guys together! 

 

And as there's probably no surprise to anyone, he is fairly certain that Bruno will be one and done.    But he has quickly become my second favorite player on the team and will be a lot of fun to watch for the one! 

We'd end up with someone who couldn't coach or recruit.

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2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

We'd end up with someone who couldn't coach or recruit.

Kinda like what would happen in baseball terms if you combined DD and Macphail?   😁

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On 11/27/2017 at 9:18 PM, Tony-OH said:

If there is a worse last minute of a game team than Maryland I'd like to know. Another turnover fest especially late in the game, unbelievably poor free throw shooting, and more mind-boggling poor out of timeout plays by Turgeon's squad. They would have been blown out if not for Huerter shooting the lights out.

Raise your hand if you were happy to see Turgeon call that last timeout? Why would anyone want this guy drawing up anything. Out of the last time out they throw the ball around a bunch of times on the outside until with seven seconds left Cowan goes in for a drive and loses the ball ala Trimble.

Now the Terps hung in there despite the fact that Syracuse easily outmanned them, but only because Huerter was hitting shots almost from half court. I literally think Turgeon's entire offensive plays consists of pick and rolls to the center, inside out three point shots that are usually contested and telling whoever his point guard is to throw the ball around until you get to 9 seconds then drive.

Now, the Terps big men are awful outside of Bruno and Bruno is still a bit raw with finishing plays and definitely a poor free throw shooter. But who's fault is that? Checko is still as awful as he was when he got here with stone hands, no rebounding ability, and a sever lack of presence in the middle. Bender should not even be playing D-I and Obi is nothing more than a body to put in for a few minutes.

Defensively this team is awful against anyone who can drive to the Morsell may be the only good one on one defender and he's still a bit raw as a Freshman. Again, who recruited these guys? How can you not find a decent rebounder? A decent defender? Or even a true ball handler?

Trimble was a below average passer for a PG and Cowan is just sloppy and not a great ball handler either. He certainly can't guard.

This team might not make the tourney this year. 

I like the spirit, but a bit of an over reaction.  This team solely relied on Melo for 3 straight years at the end of games.  I give them a pass there.  What worries me going forward is that Cowan(height) and Huerter(Speed and Dribbling) are athletically limited.  The guy that has to step up in those situations is Justin Jackson.  We have to run the offense through him at those end of game possessions.  He's got the athleticism to create plays and the height to pass out of double teams when they come.  He's been the let down so far.  He should play at the FT line against any zone and eat it up, but he's been too timid.  

Morsell and Fernando have been exactly what we've needed.  Big time athletes that bring toughness.  They're just freshman and neither really have a jumper.  We really need Morsell to be healthy.  The fact that he had to sit in the middle of the Syracuse zone, in only his 6th NCAA game, with a bum hammy, speaks volumes about that dude.  

Looking forward I see us winning the rest of our non conference games and going 11-2.  Even at 10-8 in the B1G, we will still be 21-10.  I think that gets us in.  That's pretty much worse case scenario.  The B1G isn't that strong.  Plus the Bucknell and Butler wins will look better as the season goes on.  

We've lost two games where guys have had drove to the rim and thrown up wild shots.  These weren't wide open looks.  That'll even out over the course of a season.  At least that's what KenPom says.  haha

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