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Tony-OH

Orioles set record for futility, will Buck survive?

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11 minutes ago, Natty said:

Has a GM ever experienced this kind of losing and been brought back?

Detroit's GM in 2003 was Dave Dombrowski, and he stayed in the job until 2015 when he left for Boston after the season.

BTW, 2003 was only his second year in Detroit, with a combined record of 98-219.  He officially became the Detroit GM after the 6th game of the 2002 season.

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1 hour ago, TonySoprano said:

There are those who claim that the Britton decision was when Buck "lost the clubhouse."  2017 started off 15-8 in April against a tough schedule.  The team had only one winning month (August), the rest of the way.  From June-August, 36-46 (.439).  A .360 July is the high water mark of this season.

Exactly Bill. It's a point when i think Buck Showalter as a manager "jumped the shark". I think that was the point when his message started to fall on deaf ears withing the clubhouse veterans. Regardless, it's the point where we can start to see the Orioles decline.

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13 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Exactly Bill. It's a point when i think Buck Showalter as a manager "jumped the shark". I think that was the point when his message started to fall on deaf ears withing the clubhouse veterans. Regardless, it's the point where we can start to see the Orioles decline.

I don't doubt that is what you have been hearing.  What I question is if his message was being ignored, how a professional ballplayer would mail it in, even in part, after that?  What happened to integrity? Pride?

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2 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

I don't doubt that is what you have been hearing.  What I question is if his message was being ignored, how a professional ballplayer would mail it in, even in part, after that?  I've worked for people I didn't agree with, but that never stopped me from doing my job; it's called integrity.

I don't think players started to mail it in per se, but I do think players perform better when games mean something and when they understand their roles and believe things are fair.

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2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't think players started to mail it in per se, but I do think players perform better when games mean something and when they understand their roles and believe things are fair.

I personally have seen enough. I mean come on, in game one today he plays Davis against Price. We couldn't see 3K's coming? Then he puts Davis back in the lineup for game two. Who can take him seriously? 

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 It's time for a new voice in the clubhouse.  Keep Duquette, clean house elsewhere.  I wouldn't object to a critical review of the minor league system as well with an eye on pitching development.

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5 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Exactly Bill. It's a point when i think Buck Showalter as a manager "jumped the shark". I think that was the point when his message started to fall on deaf ears withing the clubhouse veterans. Regardless, it's the point where we can start to see the Orioles decline.

Sometimes it takes a while for something like that to simmer in the clubhouse.  Then when adversity hits, people in the organization automatically go back to that point in time.

Basically I'm saying the players may have acted just like us fans did... because that's how people's minds work.

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The biggest disappointment is how poor the development has been among pitchers.  Starters especially, who frequently seem to continue up short vs what their potential/expectations/ceilings were.  Like a potential TOR guy may never be more than a 4/5 starter, and a future 4/5 starter ends up a long man yo-yo-ing to Norfolk.  That has to be considered too.

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2 hours ago, JohnD said:

The biggest disappointment is how poor the development has been among pitchers.  Starters especially, who frequently seem to continue up short vs what their potential/expectations/ceilings were.  Like a potential TOR guy may never be more than a 4/5 starter, and a future 4/5 starter ends up a long man yo-yo-ing to Norfolk.  That has to be considered too.

I guess they weren't the right guys or healthy enough as well. 

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3 hours ago, JohnD said:

The biggest disappointment is how poor the development has been among pitchers.  Starters especially, who frequently seem to continue up short vs what their potential/expectations/ceilings were.  Like a potential TOR guy may never be more than a 4/5 starter, and a future 4/5 starter ends up a long man yo-yo-ing to Norfolk.  That has to be considered too.

It certainly does seem to be the norm now doesn't it? The Orioles have selected many pitchers over the first two rounds of the draft over the last 15 years and have little show for it and have yet to draft and develop a true TOR.

Brian Matusz (2008), Matt Hobgood (2009), Chris Smith (2001), Adam Loewen (2002) , Kevin Gausman (2012), and Dylan Bundy (2011) were all selected in the top 10 picks of their respective drafts. Not one of them ever became a TOR, two of them never made it out of the minors, and the best of them is probably Gausman who is at best assessment is a #3 starter but probably a number four because of his inconsistency his offspeed pitches and his lack of glove side command.

At the end of the day, the Orioles just have not shown any ability to draft and develop TORs or honestly even solid #2 or #3 pitchers. Now people will point to Arrieta, but Arrieta didn't find his success until he went to the Cubs so they get credit for developing him.

Meanwhile we've been drafting many pitchers and the best we can bring up this year is Hess (Most likely a reliever), Yacobonis (reliever at best), and Ramirez (long reliever)?

Now this year might see DL Hall get into the top 100 prospects, and Grayson Rodriguez besides his last start was doing pretty well, but who are the potential TORs in the system?

Akin is a nice prospect but again we're looking more like a #3 or #4 with him at best, and the other top guys like Lowther, Wells, Hanifee are back of the rotation guys or relievers. Harvey can't stay healthy, and probably needs to be moved to the bullpen to get some value out of him.

I do like that the Orioles went out and got arms in the trade with Kremer, Tate, Ortiz and Rogers looking like the best guys they got in the return, but outside of Kremer, who gets you a little excited by their numbers? Tate and Ortiz don't miss enough bats for me so they are going to be limited to most likely #4 or #5 guys or relievers and Rogers is definitely a #5 type guy with #4 upside.

Kremer has the most upside for me but I wouldn't call it TOR upside. More like #3 upside.

Hopefully DL Hall and or Grayson Rodriguez can step up and start looking like guys.

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