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Are Baseballs "Juiced" This Season?

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4 minutes ago, foxfield said:

 

  

Cheating has always existed and arguing otherwise is futile.  However, when people ask for evidence of modern cheating and speak of it having a larger impact today, I think that comes less from say Hank Aaron having a great year at 39 and more from this....which I offer as the proof Can of Corn asks for above:

 

barry-bonds-steroid-comparison.jpg

 

That should not impact overwhelming evidence of prior cheating...but that is one human above.  Both great players, but one is clearly the benefactor of a level of cheating that is exponentially different than the version that existed previously.  

So you are arguing cheating more efficiently is somehow worse?

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3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

So you are arguing cheating more efficiently is somehow worse?

I am not arguing that at all.  I agree that cheating has existed forever, we know pitchers for example have always doctored the ball.  You asked for proof that todays cheating had a larger impact and I am merely showing exhibit A as to why people make that leap.  Is that worse or just more obvious?

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1 hour ago, Maverick Hiker said:

No, You have it backwards.  HGH and steroids enable players to make a mockery of the game.  I saw Bonds hitting many times when he was on the juice, it was ridiculous. His plate coverage and bat speed were unnatural, so was his build.  He broke the HR records because of steroids. Bonds  could have taken the best amphetamines in the world and he would never have come close to what he did with steroids.  McGwire would not have broken Maris' 61 HR record if not for steroids. 

Amphetamines help a tired player achieve close to his natural ability when he is tired, like after a night game.  They do not make him look like the Hulk or enable him to break HR records. 

You are confusing Amphetamines with caffeine.  Amphetamines give you a faster reaction time, better concentration, and less fatigue.  The levels that are achieved through the use of amphetamines are levels that cannot be achieved without "help".  

Barry Bonds with amphetamines would come close or break the HR. You forget/didnt know that Bonds was hitting 40+ HR and walking 100+ times in the early 90s, before the alleged conversation with Ken Griffey Jr about how they were better than McGwire and Sosa and he wasnt going to let them take stuff and be seen as better than him. 

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5 minutes ago, foxfield said:

I am not arguing that at all.  I agree that cheating has existed forever, we know pitchers for example have always doctored the ball.  You asked for proof that todays cheating had a larger impact and I am merely showing exhibit A as to why people make that leap.  Is that worse or just more obvious?

Oh, so you are saying that people think that since steroids make a visible physical impact and amphetamines don't that steroids effect performance to a greater degree?

Because I don't follow that logic.  They work in different ways. 

 

Edited by Can_of_corn
Changed it to show that I wasn't accusing Foxfield of sharing that belief
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The home run leader (Yelich) is one lean dude at 6-3195lb. Cody Bellinger also doesn't seem like a prototypical PED's physique.

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1 minute ago, byrdz said:

The home run leader (Yelich) is one lean dude at 6-3195lb. Cody Bellinger also doesn't seem like a prototypical PED's physique.

GettyImages-524300292.0.jpg

 

6a00d834515b9a69e2019b02a4af57970b-pi.jp

Like these two?

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53 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Oh, so you are saying that people think that since steroids make a visible physical impact and amphetamines don't that steroids effect performance to a greater degree?

Because I don't follow that logic.  They work in different ways. 

 

Exactly, I think the fact that people can look at Bonds and see clear evidence that something is different and therefore see the impact.  I am not arguing different impact, or even different outcome.  I do see how it is easier to make an association, even if it is false, that Bonds and his era ushered in an era that redefined cheating and whether you and I agree with that association or not, I do think it explains why we find ourselves in a position where Bonds, Clemens, Arod, Sosa and McGuire are not in the Hall of Fame, yet Aaron, Ruth, Mantle, Mays and even Gaylord Perry are.

The struggle is real, and it continues.

And thanks for the edit above.

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5 hours ago, Frobby said:

That seems like a fairly ridiculous statement.    I think the root is the increasing velocity of pitches, which certainly doesn’t stem from less PED’s.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. Major league hitters can hit fastballs and if they can't, they don't last long in the league. Even average hitters can hit a mid-90's fastball. Mark Wohlers was throwing 103 in the 90's and had a fairly underwhelming career overall. It takes way more than velocity to get ML hitters out on a consistent basis, so I would say that statement is rather ridiculous as well. If we're going to say that PEDs significantly increase athletic performance, than taking them away MUST significantly decrease athletic performance. The most noticeable effect of PEDs is more power, more homeruns and more scoring. Taking them away reverses those increases into the negative.

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2 hours ago, Luke-OH said:

Here's the lack of efficacy of HGH. 

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/741027/systematic-review-effects-growth-hormone-athletic-performance

"Conclusion:

Claims that growth hormone enhances physical performance are not supported by the scientific literature. Although the limited available evidence suggests that growth hormone increases lean body mass, it may not improve strength; in addition, it may worsen exercise capacity and increase adverse events. More research is needed to conclusively determine the effects of growth hormone on athletic performance."

Here's some peer reviewed stimulant data

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-018-1014-1

3.2.1 S6: Stimulants

Stimulants are thought to potentially improve performance via the effects on neurotransmitter levels in the brain, predominantly dopamine and norepinephrine. Research into the effects of stimulants on performance has mainly focused on a few drug classes. Amphetamines such as amphetamine sulfate [95] showed positive effects on muscle strength (knee extension strength + 23%), acceleration (+ 4%) and time to exhaustion (+ 5%) in untrained subjects. Similarly, methylphenidate [96] improved time to exhaustion (+ 29%) in highly trained subjects. VO2maxwas not affected in either study and endurance performance (such as a time trial) was not investigated in these studies. Of note, the former study used no baseline correction (i.e. amphetamine performance was directly compared with placebo performance in the randomized, crossover design) and, for the latter study, it is unclear whether it was (double-)blinded, which may both make the results less robust. Another study with a higher dose of methylphenidate showed no effect on time-trial performance in normal temperature, but there was an improvement of 15% average power output compared with placebo in the heat (30°) in trained subjects [97]. Levomethamphetamine was investigated for its effect on time-trial performance in young participants and showed no change [98].

Ephedrine, pseudoephedrine and phenylpropanolamine have a similar mechanism of action to amphetamines. Two studies investigating the effects of ephedrine showed positive effects. One study found an effect on peak Wingate sprint power (+ 0.6%), but not on time to exhaustion [99], in untrained subjects, and another study found an improvement in a type of time-to-exhaustion test in trained strength athletes, namely leg and bench press repetitions (+ 30% and + 8%, respectively) [100]. One positive study for pseudoephedrine used a dose of 180 mg, which increased knee extension strength by 9% and peak Wingate sprint performance by 3%, but not bench press power, in strength-trained subjects [101]. Later publications also showed that low doses of pseudoephedrine used clinically did not affect 5000 m run time in highly trained runners [102], or peak power or total work during a Wingate test in trained subjects [103]; only high doses improved performance, with 1500 m run time decreasing by 2% in highly trained runners [104]. The authors of this latter study therefore concluded that high pseudoephedrine doses are needed for performance effects.

Hmm interesting. Still, I tend to believe that steroids and HGH would help a player more than amphetamines. One can find a study to back up almost anything that has a grain of truth to it.

 Plus, my mind is made up on this issue, and reading studies that go against what I believe  will only cause  me to have cognitive dissonance.

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14 hours ago, Maverick Hiker said:

Hmm interesting. Still, I tend to believe that steroids and HGH would help a player more than amphetamines. One can find a study to back up almost anything that has a grain of truth to it.

 Plus, my mind is made up on this issue, and reading studies that go against what I believe  will only cause  me to have cognitive dissonance.

Rather than belief why not base your ideas on research and facts? My research has informed me that the primary benefit of PED;s is to increase the speed of workout recovery time and thus allowing the athlete to maintain a level of peak performance over an extended period of time. They do not increase maximum strength more than normal weight training.

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4 minutes ago, El Gordo said:

They do not increase maximum strength more than normal weight training.

My research has informed me that it's damn near impossible to get this big with "normal weight training"

jose-canseco_8069-780x405.jpeg

Anyway, whatever.

 

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29 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

My research has informed me that it's damn near impossible to get this big with "normal weight training"

jose-canseco_8069-780x405.jpeg

Anyway, whatever.

 

Yeah. Nobody is going to convince me that HGH does not increase players strength, bat speed, power, average, and velocity for pitchers.

As for the players build it's not as obvious as the Bonds McGwire years but some of these players today still seem like they have unnatural muscle growth.

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31 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

My research has informed me that it's damn near impossible to get this big with "normal weight training"

jose-canseco_8069-780x405.jpeg

Anyway, whatever.

 

 

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Just now, El Gordo said:

 

There is s limit to how much muscle mass any individual can acquire. It varies from person to person. PED's don't increase that ceiling, they help you reach it faster.

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