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Duquette's trade history

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1 hour ago, LTO's said:

Dombrowski won a WS. Under Duquette the Orioles won one playoff series. Also, Dombrowski is criticized very often for how poorly he treats his teams farms.

Ok so that means what exactly? Many of the players Dombrowski dealt were International players he inherited that DD never had access to. Plus he already had a good group of position players ready to win. 

He has used his farm to win now. So have other teams. Theo dealt Torres for Chapman. There is a cost just like free agency.

The Orioles model under Peter Angelos was never going to work in the long run no matter who the GM was. It was Dan’s moves in 2012 and the graduation of Manny that turned the expectations around. Jon Meoli the other day pointed out how the Cashner trade was one the Orioles could not make from the other side because they didn’t have the 17 year old DSL players to trade. They had to use their Top 30 minor league prospects in deals. 

DD was far from perfect but I just don’t see how it is realistic to have any continuous success and not bottom out as bad when you operate the way ownership did. A Franchise that was already limited in acquiring young talent through no fault of the GM was limited even further when they were winning and then when decided not to trade off assets until their value had diminished. All that puts an unrealistic burden on the scouting department and GM to basically be flawless. You have to have some margin for error. Mistakes are made by all teams.

 

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42 minutes ago, interloper said:

And you know what? It was fun! I had fun for that ride! 

They just stayed on too long.

It was a great ride, after more than a decade of having no wheels at all. 

But is it fair to blame Duquette for the obvious mistake of trying to keep the window open for too long? Everything I read at the time made it pretty clear to me that those futile efforts came at the direction of the owner and his desperation for another shot at the World Series, even when that became unrealistic.

For me, that further complicates the evaluation of Duquette's 2018 trades and his overall performance.

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It isn’t a coincidence when you see some franchises be mediocre or worse over decades. The constant is ownership. The better the owners are equate to higher quality executives wanting to work for that team. The environment is conducive to winning. 

I admit when we turned it around I was too busy enjoying the winning after 14 years of losing to look too far into the future. 

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32 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

It was a great ride, after more than a decade of having no wheels at all. 

But is it fair to blame Duquette for the obvious mistake of trying to keep the window open for too long? Everything I read at the time made it pretty clear to me that those futile efforts came at the direction of the owner and his desperation for another shot at the World Series, even when that became unrealistic.

For me, that further complicates the evaluation of Duquette's 2018 trades and his overall performance.

I don't think it's fair to blame DD for trying to keep a window open for too long. That clearly was what ownership directed - and DD did his job the best he could, often with one hand behind his back.

The 2017 team he put together straight up underperformed. There is no reason that lineup on Opening Day should have played the way they did. I'm not saying DD was the best GM ever, but 2012-2016 was absolutely awesome and I can forgive a Gerardo Parra trade when there was far more good than bad during his tenure.

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1 hour ago, theocean said:

I don't think it's fair to blame DD for trying to keep a window open for too long. That clearly was what ownership directed - and DD did his job the best he could, often with one hand behind his back.

The 2017 team he put together straight up underperformed. There is no reason that lineup on Opening Day should have played the way they did. I'm not saying DD was the best GM ever, but 2012-2016 was absolutely awesome and I can forgive a Gerardo Parra trade when there was far more good than bad during his tenure.

I have trouble evaluating Duquette's performance as the Orioles GM unemotionally.  Watching the 2012 wild card game (on TV) and the second game of the 2014 ALCS series (in person) gave me two of the biggest thrills I've gotten had in 60-plus years of watching baseball, especially because I didn't expect either team to get that far.    :clap:  😅

When I read or engage in legitimate criticisms of Dan's performance, memories of those successes, which would be modest for some teams but not for the 21st century Orioles, have a tendency to elbow their way in.

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3 hours ago, spiritof66 said:

The Yankees, and lots of other teams, have used and still use free agent signings of talent from Latin America as a source of both their own ML talent and depth of prospects for trading. It seems pretty clear that ownership prevented Duquette from doing that, as well as from maximizing the value he could get from trading Machado and others earlier.

 I don't know how you factor that in, but it definitely had an impact in depleting the talent pool and liming the tradable prospects at Duquette's disposal.

While true, this isn't the topic I was debating. I was just noting that when the Yankees decided to cut bait for a season, they did so knowing they had borderline unlimited assets to replace the players they were trading through free agency the following winter. The Orioles do not have unlimited cash assets in that sense.

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10 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

I have trouble evaluating Duquette's performance as the Orioles GM unemotionally.  Watching the 2012 wild card game (on TV) and the second game of the 2014 ALCS series (in person) gave me two of the biggest thrills I've gotten had in 60-plus years of watching baseball, especially because I didn't expect either team to get that far.    :clap:  😅

When I read or engage in legitimate criticisms of Dan's performance, memories of those successes, which would be modest for some teams but not for the 21st century Orioles, have a tendency to elbow their way in.

The best word I can come up with to describe Duquette is competent. When he had talent, he didn't screw it up. He recognized what he had in Jones and built around him. He found some complementary nuggets to add to the core. Nelson Cruz was a stroke of genius. (Of course, not re-signing Cruz was a terrible mistake). Chen, Miguel, Brach, Pearce, lots of positives there that DD should get credit for.

In terms of sacrificing the future, for the most part DD held on to top prospects (Bundy, Sisco, Gausman) while using the mid level talent rather than free agency to help fill holes in the MLB roster. I think that's a pretty good gameplan for a small/mid market team with a window to compete in the AL East. Probably the worst move in retrospect was the Feldman trade giving up Hader. Like Parra, Feldman failed to make any difference but Hader is a much bigger loss than Davies. Of course, we can only know that in hindsight.

As terrible as the Davis contract was, we all know that ownership was behind that. We can only speculate as to other ways that DD was constrained by Brady and others in the warehouse "Game of Thrones".

When the end came, DD had zero leverage as everybody knew the window had closed and we had to take what we could get for Manny and the rest.

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22 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

The best word I can come up with to describe Duquette is competent. When he had talent, he didn't screw it up. He recognized what he had in Jones and built around him. He found some complementary nuggets to add to the core. Nelson Cruz was a stroke of genius. (Of course, not re-signing Cruz was a terrible mistake). Chen, Miguel, Brach, Pearce, lots of positives there that DD should get credit for.

In terms of sacrificing the future, for the most part DD held on to top prospects (Bundy, Sisco, Gausman) while using the mid level talent rather than free agency to help fill holes in the MLB roster. I think that's a pretty good gameplan for a small/mid market team with a window to compete in the AL East. Probably the worst move in retrospect was the Feldman trade giving up Hader. Like Parra, Feldman failed to make any difference but Hader is a much bigger loss than Davies. Of course, we can only know that in hindsight.

As terrible as the Davis contract was, we all know that ownership was behind that. We can only speculate as to other ways that DD was constrained by Brady and others in the warehouse "Game of Thrones".

When the end came, DD had zero leverage as everybody knew the window had closed and we had to take what we could get for Manny and the rest.

Hader went in the Norris trade.   Arrieta went in the Feldman trade.

And it's fair to note that Houston also turned around and traded Hader too when they acquired Carlos Gomez.   And Gomez was terrible for Houston.   So they probably regret trading Hader as much as we do.

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Just now, SteveA said:

Hader went in the Norris trade.   Arrieta went in the Feldman trade.

And it's fair to note that Houston also turned around and traded Hader too when they acquired Carlos Gomez.   And Gomez was terrible for Houston.   So they probably regret trading Hader as much as we do.

Good call, I mixed those up. Norris did make a difference for us in 2014, although he killed us in 2015 (we fixate on DD, but I think Norris deserves as much of the blame for that season as anyone).

 

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On 7/17/2019 at 6:09 PM, Frobby said:

He achieved some things, but he also left the organization in significantly worse condition than when he arrived.    That has to be factored in when judging him.    The constraints placed on him also have to be considered, though we will never know the full details and reality of that.   

Several ways to look at that. When he arrived we were in a 14 year non-playoff and losing season streak. When he left we had 3 additional pennants on the walls at OPACY. But I get the other way of looking at it as well.

I guess I just disagree with the black-or-white arguments when it comes to Duquette. MacPhail deserves credit for the 12-16 years - he put the core of position players in place. But DD was key in finding pitching and depth (both of which AM was awful at), and made some good FA signings. His trade acumen was subpar. 

Ultimately, he did a pretty good job as GM, particularly when you consider how awful the organization was at the top.

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On 7/17/2019 at 4:04 PM, Greg Pappas said:

A GM should be judged by the totality of the work they did... the good AND the bad

and the ugly
giphy.gif

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On 7/17/2019 at 2:01 PM, LTO's said:

Of the many baffling moves Duquette made that tanked our farm system, this is one that still makes the least amount of sense to me.

Nothing was worse than the Davies for Parra trade. That was just a simple case of misevaluation by the Orioles. too many in the organization didn't think he would be more than a backend rotation long reliever. As I've said on numerous occasions, the Davies trade was the absolute worse trade Duquette made because not only did the underrated Davies, they totally overrated the chances of that team by thinking Parra would make any difference.

That was literally point I had serious reservations about Duquette, but at the same time, I really think that was a desperation move by Duquette to try and regain the influence he lost after the Blue Jays situation.

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I don't know, when he was in Montreal he pulled off a huge heist by sending the Dodgers Delino DeShields and getting Pedro Martinez in return.

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