The Official *SPOILERS* Thread for Game of Thrones

[ChaosLex]

Do y'all think it's the Tyrell's (specifically, the grandmother) that arranged Joffrey's demise?

[The Wedge]

Do y'all think it's the Tyrell's (specifically, the grandmother) that arranged Joffrey's demise?

With Littlefinger, yeah. He was entirely too prepared to not have had a hand in it.

[The Wedge]

So, who believes in R+L=J? I do.

[Gurgi]

So, who believes in R+L=J? I do.

I think I do. But Martin has had plenty of time to change his mind and you know he likes to surprise people.

[Murray#1]

So, who believes in R+L=J? I do.

Could you explain that for those of us that are still in the dark?

[The Wedge]

I think I do. But Martin has had plenty of time to change his mind and you know he likes to surprise people.

Yeah, its occurred to me that the delay is because he got irked that his hints got deciphered and he wanted to figure out a way to renege but still have it all make sense. I hope not, though. There's just WAY too many mysteries around the Tower of Joy and Jon's parentage. What did Ned promise Lyanna? Why does noone know for sure who Ned fathered Jon with? I also seem to remember them mentioning that Jon's Stark features made it obvious he and Arya were related...and Arya is said to strongly resemble Lyanna. Why were there 3 Kingsguard "guarding" Lyanna at the Tower of Joy? Why is the only person that still lives that knew what happened there conspicuously absent from the narrative(Howland Reed)?

When you get right down to it, though, with Jon taking the Black (and now being Lord Commander) his parentage really doesn't matter much in the political sense. However, if you look at it from the end game standpoint: all the machinations are going to mean very little against the Others. But dragons, just may. And who has dragons? And how could they maybe get her to focus her attention north?

Could you explain that for those of us that are still in the dark?

If that above doesn't help you, its the theory that Rhaegar Targaryen (R) didn't kidnap Lyanna Stark (L), but eloped with her, and she gave birth to their son, and died shortly thereafter. Luckily enough, Ned found her before she died, and she made him promise to hide her son...and thus, Ned claims the boy as his own bastard son, Jon Snow (J). There are subtle clues all over the place in the books.

[ChaosLex]

Yeah, its occurred to me that the delay is because he got irked that his hints got deciphered and he wanted to figure out a way to renege but still have it all make sense. I hope not, though. There's just WAY too many mysteries around the Tower of Joy and Jon's parentage. What did Ned promise Lyanna? Why does noone know for sure who Ned fathered Jon with? I also seem to remember them mentioning that Jon's Stark features made it obvious he and Arya were related...and Arya is said to strongly resemble Lyanna. Why were there 3 Kingsguard "guarding" Lyanna at the Tower of Joy? Why is the only person that still lives that knew what happened there conspicuously absent from the narrative(Howland Reed)?

When you get right down to it, though, with Jon taking the Black (and now being Lord Commander) his parentage really doesn't matter much in the political sense. However, if you look at it from the end game standpoint: all the machinations are going to mean very little against the Others. But dragons, just may. And who has dragons? And how could they maybe get her to focus her attention north?



If that above doesn't help you, its the theory that Rhaegar Targaryen (R) didn't kidnap Lyanna Stark (L), but eloped with her, and she gave birth to their son, and died shortly thereafter. Luckily enough, Ned found her before she died, and she made him promise to hide her son...and thus, Ned claims the boy as his own bastard son, Jon Snow (J). There are subtle clues all over the place in the books.

So, why would Robert have killed Rhaegar then? Was it a crime of passion more than anything else?

Personally, I hope that Jon and Daeny marry and rule the realm as King and Queen together. True, she's *technically* his aunt (if Rhaegar is his father), but it's not like incest was uncommon among the Dragon lords.

[The Wedge]

So, why would Robert have killed Rhaegar then? Was it a crime of passion more than anything else?

Personally, I hope that Jon and Daeny marry and rule the realm as King and Queen together. True, she's *technically* his aunt (if Rhaegar is his father), but it's not like incest was uncommon among the Dragon lords.

Robert killed Rhaegar before Ned's group reached the Tower of Joy, and in the midst of Robert's Rebellion. And the only three people that know EXACTLY what happened there at the ToJ are Ned, Lyanna, and Howland Reed. I'm sure they went in thinking they were rescuing her, but possibly found out there was more that meets the eye. And if Lyanna made Ned promise to keep Jon's parentage a secret, he would have kept it from Robert.

[Gurgi]

He couldnt of told Robert because Robert would of had it killed outright. As a insult to him and mainly because the son would of been a major rallying personage for everyone with a gripe against the new King.

That has to be what is behind Neds idiotic position that they shouldnt kill Danny. Frankly Danny should be killed.

[The Wedge]

He couldnt of told Robert because Robert would of had it killed outright. As a insult to him and mainly because the son would of been a major rallying personage for everyone with a gripe against the new King.

That has to be what is behind Neds idiotic position that they shouldnt kill Danny. Frankly Danny should be killed.

...from Robert's position, maybe. But I barely see it as an idiotic position for Ned. Keep in mind that they are worried about her unborn son when (at the time) Viserys still lives, is of age, and is the current "rightful" heir. Why so worried about Dany and her kid all of a sudden? Is it just because of Khal Drogo? When the Dothraki have never crossed the Narrow Sea? No, I think Ned sees Roberts vitriol for what it is, his desire to wipe the entire Targaryens from the world. I'm surprised he didn't go after Maester Aemon up at the Wall.

[ChaosLex]

You know, as much as I hate the Lannister's, you have to give it to them. Unlike the Starks, they actually seem well-versed in playing the "game of thrones." There's far too much honor amongst the Stark clan.

[The Wedge]

In general. And the Starks are decimated for it. However, it can be easily argued that they had their proirities focused north, not south.

Plus, delving further in to Cersei makes it clear that she's not as smart and cunning as she seems, she's scared and lucky. Once things start to unravel for her, they unravel fast.

[Spoonless]

I think it was just mostly Ned who wasn't prepared. Catelyn, being a Tully, clearly had the political savvy to perhaps temper Ned. Robb does fairly well under her tutelage until he makes his massive mistake. Ned seemed to be content to just hold the North, and it's obvious how out of touch he had grown with Robert when he finds the state of the kingdom to be what it was.

[The Wedge]

Eh, Cat is kind of a weird example. She was easily manipulated, and deciding to "arrest" Tyrion was a pretty big emotional blunder. She was savvy enough to parlay politically along the Trident (including knowing how volatile Walder Frey would be).

Speaking of, am I imagining it or was it revealed that Robb was set up with Jeyne Westerling specifically to screw him with Frey?

[Gurgi]

Cat is responsible directly for her husband and sons death. Her kidnapping Tyrion lead to Ned being killed and her release of Jaimie lead directly to the conspiracy against Robb with that northern lord who lost two sons to Jaimie. She is a trainwreck of emotion. She emotes and destroys.