I have yet to see anyone answer this question....

[El Gordo]

Why do you think PA will eat 10M of Roberts salary and DFA one of his favorite players, in addition to giving up value in players and taking on 13 M in extra payroll for Kinsler, 10M for Pedroia or signing Kelly Johnson for 7-8 M as a FA.. It simply doesn't make sense. Besides Kinsler is on the way down. He hit .256, .327 and .749 OPS with 21 SB. If Roberts is healthy I wouldn't be surprised to see him put up those kinds of numbers. If not, with the post season's of Andino and Flaherty, why not look to them as cheap and effective back up options, and spend else where?

[sevastras]

I am guessing that insurance is paying Roberts and not PA. Didnt he make out ok on the Belle deal with insurance?

[Can_of_corn]

You do realize that a "healthy" Roberts put up -1.0 bWAR/fWAR in only 17 games this season right? Over a full season (150 games) that translates to -8.8 wins over replacement level.

[exist10z]

I'll give it shot, but I can't speak for 'anyone', just myself.

I don't think Angelo's will DFA Roberts and eat the salary, so I think you are correct there. I think he should, but I don't think he will. Why do I think he should? Because Roberts isn't a part of 'this' team, the chemistry this team developed winning together. He is a holdover from the old 'losing' Orioles. Isn't Markakis a holdover from the old 'losing' Orioles? Yes, but he has found a way to transcend that and appears to really fit in with the new attitude. Roberts, in my opinion, is the antithesis of this new attitude. A PED user who is always injured, or begging injury, and was grossly over-payed (not his fault, unless hitting yourself in the head with a bat and using drugs is your own fault) for the production he produced since being payed, and appeared to be satisfied collecting his checks and enjoying his sumptuous life.

You contend that you can 'see' Roberts putting up numbers similar to Kinslers? Really? How? Because he did it for 4 years 4 years ago? Because he did it before his skills were eroded by drug use, injury, and age? I can't conceive of a reality in which Brian Roberts could even complete a season as a decent utility infielder, much less a regular contributor, and I think recent history more than backs this up.

I personally am not advocating any particular replacement at 2B, but I do believe that is the most logical position to look to upgrade, as it was probably our weakest position. In addition to being a weakness, the type of player who normally fills second base, just happens to be the sort of player we desperately need, a high OBP, run scoring player (someone like Roberts USE to be, long ago). So yeah, I definitely advocate looking for a second baseman, whether through free agency or the trade market.

[El Gordo]

I'll give it shot, but I can't speak for 'anyone', just myself.

I don't think Angelo's will DFA Roberts and eat the salary, so I think you are correct there. I think he should, but I don't think he will. Why do I think he should? Because Roberts isn't a part of 'this' team, the chemistry this team developed winning together. He is a holdover from the old 'losing' Orioles. Isn't Markakis a holdover from the old 'losing' Orioles? Yes, but he has found a way to transcend that and appears to really fit in with the new attitude. Roberts, in my opinion, is the antithesis of this new attitude. A PED user who is always injured, or begging injury, and was grossly over-payed (not his fault, unless hitting yourself in the head with a bat and using drugs is your own fault) for the production he produced since being payed, and appeared to be satisfied collecting his checks and enjoying his sumptuous life.

You contend that you can 'see' Roberts putting up numbers similar to Kinslers? Really? How? Because he did it for 4 years 4 years ago? Because he did it before his skills were eroded by drug use, injury, and age? I can't conceive of a reality in which Brian Roberts could even complete a season as a decent utility infielder, much less a regular contributor, and I think recent history more than backs this up.

I personally am not advocating any particular replacement at 2B, but I do believe that is the most logical position to look to upgrade, as it was probably our weakest position. In addition to being a weakness, the type of player who normally fills second base, just happens to be the sort of player we desperately need, a high OBP, run scoring player (someone like Roberts USE to be, long ago). So yeah, I definitely advocate looking for a second baseman, whether through free agency or the trade market.

So you think that Flaherty and Andino are such liabilities that they warrant eating Roberts 10M plus trading valuable pieces for a Kinsler and his 70 M salary over the next 5 years? How did we manage to win so many games with those two albitrosses at 2B. Ridiculous.

[VeveJones007]

Kinsler or Johnson, not a chance. If the Red Sox lost their mind and gave us Pedroia, then sign me up. It isn't worth thinking about, though. Never going to happen.

[DrinkinWithFermi]

Why do you think PA will eat 10M of Roberts salary and DFA one of his favorite players, in addition to giving up value in players and taking on 13 M in extra payroll for Kinsler, 10M for Pedroia or signing Kelly Johnson for 7-8 M as a FA.. It simply doesn't make sense. Besides Kinsler is on the way down. He hit .256, .327 and .749 OPS with 21 SB. If Roberts is healthy I wouldn't be surprised to see him put up those kinds of numbers. If not, with the post season's of Andino and Flaherty, why not look to them as cheap and effective back up options, and spend else where?

I know we aren't going to eat Roberts' contract and that taking on Kinsler's contract is certainly out of the question, which is why I have been suggesting Maicer Izturis as a stop gap 2B until Schoop is ready or Roberts' contract is off the books and we can sign or trade for a major long-term upgrade. He shouldn't cost more than 2 or 3 million(if that...) and would be a significant upgrade over Andino and/or Flaherty.

Maicer Izturis' career line: .273/.337/.381
Robert Andino's career line: .235/.296/.323
Ryan Flaherty's career line: .216/.258/.359

Could Flaherty take a big step forward next year? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he becomes the next Chase Utley. But if he doesn't, and Brian Roberts is unable to contribute for whatever reason, 2B is going to be a big gaping black hole. Again.

Vote Maicer Izturis in 2013.

[nate22]

Please no Kelly Johnson. He strikes out in his sleep.

[exist10z]

So you think that Flaherty and Andino are such liabilities that they warrant eating Roberts 10M plus trading valuable pieces for a Kinsler and his 70 M salary over the next 5 years? How did we manage to win so many games with those two albitrosses at 2B. Ridiculous.

Yeah, I never said any of that. All I said was that we shouldn't plan on, expect, or even want to have Roberts on the team. Might want to re-read what I wrote. I like Flaherty and Andino, just not as everyday second baseman. Flaherty might be eventually, but if we want to address our most pressing need for next year, we can't expect or assume Flaherty will mature into that guy right away. Andino, while I appreciate what he's done for the team, is really a weak utility guy at best.

I never suggested trading away valuable pieces or proposed going after Kinsler. If you read what I actually wrote, I said I didn't know who we should get and whether it should be through free agency or trade. I simply suggested that second base was a natural fit for an upgrade, as the types of guys who usually play the position, fit well with out offensive needs.

I never described either Andino or Flaherty as an 'albatross', and while they were sufficient for this season, if we are looking to improve, then most of the other positions look strong to me. To call anything I said 'ridiculous' clearly shows you are speaking from emotion, not logic, and have some sort of bias because of something I said. Possibly you just don't like people disagreeing with you, or possibly you are part of Brian Roberts publicity team. Who knows...

Regardless, what the O's could use, is a strong fielding second baseman who has a 350+ OBP, scores runs, and maybe has a bit of speed. A guy like Roberts use to be...

[El Gordo]

Yeah, I never said any of that. All I said was that we shouldn't plan on, expect, or even want to have Roberts on the team. Might want to re-read what I wrote. I like Flaherty and Andino, just not as everyday second baseman. Flaherty might be eventually, but if we want to address our most pressing need for next year, we can't expect or assume Flaherty will mature into that guy right away. Andino, while I appreciate what he's done for the team, is really a weak utility guy at best.

I never suggested trading away valuable pieces or proposed going after Kinsler. If you read what I actually wrote, I said I didn't know who we should get and whether it should be through free agency or trade. I simply suggested that second base was a natural fit for an upgrade, as the types of guys who usually play the position, fit well with out offensive needs.

I never described either Andino or Flaherty as an 'albatross', and while they were sufficient for this season, if we are looking to improve, then most of the other positions look strong to me. To call anything I said 'ridiculous' clearly shows you are speaking from emotion, not logic, and have some sort of bias because of something I said. Possibly you just don't like people disagreeing with you, or possibly you are part of Brian Roberts publicity team. Who knows...

Regardless, what the O's could use, is a strong fielding second baseman who has a 350+ OBP, scores runs, and maybe has a bit of speed. A guy like Roberts use to be...

This is ridiculous:"Roberts, in my opinion, is the antithesis of this new attitude. A PED user who is always injured, or begging injury, and was grossly over-payed (not his fault, unless hitting yourself in the head with a bat and using drugs is your own fault) for the production he produced since being payed, and appeared to be satisfied collecting his checks and enjoying his sumptuous life." In addition thinking you can get a seroius upgrade at 2B, "the sort of player we desperately need, a high OBP, run scoring player (someone like Roberts USE to be, long ago). So yeah, I definitely advocate looking for a second baseman, whether through free agency or the trade market" without having to give up a lot in trade or spend a lot in addition to eating Roberts 10 is also ridiculous. It is much more prudent to see what Roberts has left, and go with Flaherty and Andino as a back up option. Or trade Andino and sign a Keppinger or Izturis who would cost a lot less.

[SteveO]

This is ridiculous:"Roberts, in my opinion, is the antithesis of this new attitude. A PED user who is always injured, or begging injury, and was grossly over-payed (not his fault, unless hitting yourself in the head with a bat and using drugs is your own fault) for the production he produced since being payed, and appeared to be satisfied collecting his checks and enjoying his sumptuous life." In addition thinking you can get a seroius upgrade at 2B, "the sort of player we desperately need, a high OBP, run scoring player (someone like Roberts USE to be, long ago). So yeah, I definitely advocate looking for a second baseman, whether through free agency or the trade market" without having to give up a lot in trade or spend a lot in addition to eating Roberts 10 is also ridiculous. It is much more prudent to see what Roberts has left, and go with Flaherty and Andino as a back up option. Or trade Andino and sign a Keppinger or Izturis who would cost a lot less.

I agree with you Gordo. I think you bring in a guy like Izturis, Keppinger etc to compliment Flaherty. I would move Andino along to be honest. Like his glove but like Keppinger or Izturis more in terms of guys who can hit a little better and more importantly both are guys who will take pitches and or a walk.

I think this is the smart move. They obviously like Schoop but he clearly at the earliest not a factor until say sometime in the summer and that is only if he progresses more rapidly than he has. My guess is that in a perfect world, they would like to bring him up either in Sept or in 2014

[Can_of_corn]

I agree with you Gordo. I think you bring in a guy like Izturis, Keppinger etc to compliment Flaherty. I would move Andino along to be honest. Like his glove but like Keppinger or Izturis more in terms of guys who can hit a little better and more importantly both are guys who will take pitches and or a walk.

I think this is the smart move. They obviously like Schoop but he clearly at the earliest not a factor until say sometime in the summer and that is only if he progresses more rapidly than he has. My guess is that in a perfect world, they would like to bring him up either in Sept or in 2014

Who would have thought that Machado would be a factor in 2012. Schoop is still playing ball.

[exist10z]

This is ridiculous:"Roberts, in my opinion, is the antithesis of this new attitude. A PED user who is always injured, or begging injury, and was grossly over-payed (not his fault, unless hitting yourself in the head with a bat and using drugs is your own fault) for the production he produced since being payed, and appeared to be satisfied collecting his checks and enjoying his sumptuous life." In addition thinking you can get a seroius upgrade at 2B, "the sort of player we desperately need, a high OBP, run scoring player (someone like Roberts USE to be, long ago). So yeah, I definitely advocate looking for a second baseman, whether through free agency or the trade market" without having to give up a lot in trade or spend a lot in addition to eating Roberts 10 is also ridiculous. It is much more prudent to see what Roberts has left, and go with Flaherty and Andino as a back up option. Or trade Andino and sign a Keppinger or Izturis who would cost a lot less.

Oops, my bad sorry, I misunderstood. I was being ridiculous.

Ridiculous trying to make a reasoned argument against counting on Brian Roberts, with Brian Roberts publicist (or possibly family member?). So, because we have a former-player that we are paying who is of no use, we should make no effort to upgrade that position? Ok, now I understand. Just didn't know the rules.

Instead of paying a bunch of money for a LF 'upgrade' over McClouth, what many are suggesting, why not just pay McClouth a bit and use the 'extra' money from that position to get a second baseman? It's not a zero-sum game, we presumably have some money to use this off season, Roberts is a sunk cost (the money is gone, and whatever we are going to allocate, to whatever positions, is irrespective of those dollars), my OPINION is that we need a second baseman most of all - for all the reasons I mentioned. So why not allocate the money to the position of most need, as I feel the other positions are pretty well set - as you pointed out, we did win 93 games.

But, I see there is no need to continue the discussion, as clearly you are somehow deriving a check from being on the Brian Roberts bandwagon. You wouldn't happen to be the pool boy at his mansion in Miami would you? Heard his wife looks great Ina bikini, that might be a good gig...

[El Gordo]

Oops, my bad sorry, I misunderstood. I was being ridiculous.

Ridiculous trying to make a reasoned argument against counting on Brian Roberts, with Brian Roberts publicist (or possibly family member?). So, because we have a former-player that we are paying who is of no use, we should make no effort to upgrade that position? Ok, now I understand. Just didn't know the rules.
Instead of paying a bunch of money for a LF 'upgrade' over McClouth, what many are suggesting, why not just pay McClouth a bit and use the 'extra' money from that position to get a second baseman? It's not a zero-sum game, we presumably have some money to use this off season, Roberts is a sunk cost (the money is gone, and whatever we are going to allocate, to whatever positions, is irrespective of those dollars), my OPINION is that we need a second baseman most of all - for all the reasons I mentioned. So why not allocate the money to the position of most need, as I feel the other positions are pretty well set - as you pointed out, we did win 93 games.

But, I see there is no need to continue the discussion, as clearly you are somehow deriving a check from being on the Brian Roberts bandwagon. You wouldn't happen to be the pool boy at his mansion in Miami would you? Heard his wife looks great Ina bikini, that might be a good gig...

There's nothing reasoned in that, it's pure BS. The simple point you keep avoiding is that to significantly upgrade 2B over Andino and Flaherty, should Roberts prove unable to play at an acceptable level, it would cost much more in players given up and money spentm than it would be worth. Instead of spewing your inane hypebole, why not give me examples of these 2B upgrades that would be something akin to Roberts circa 2005-2010, and yet cost effective, considering you have to add 10M to whatever you end upo paying them. There is nothing reasonable in what you are sugesting.

[SteveO]

Who would have thought that Machado would be a factor in 2012. Schoop is still playing ball.

Yea this is true but again a team looking to take the next step does not gamble like that. Machado is a special case, special type player. Schoop may end up being an excellent second baseman but does not have the amount of natural talent Manny does....thats what makes a guy like Machado so special.

If he plays his way to the bigs next year than so be it. You dont formulate a plan around that happening.