Baseball America: MLB and Amateur Baseball

http://www.baseballamerica.com/college/ba-qa-mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred/

I've heard a complaint from college coaches over the years that the ages where baseball starts losing participants is ages 13-14, when the field gets bigger. Is that what your research shows as well?

RM: Our research is consistent, that's our big drop off point. I think one of the things we've spent a lot of time on is looking at what the market for youth participation looks like. Let me say what I mean by that. What groups are active in what space. The 8-12 group, Little League Baseball is an amazing phenomenon, when you think about it. It's a great organization. The idea that the 12-year- old world championship is televised nationally on ESPN over a series of days, it really doesn't get better than that. So one thing try to work on and it is behind concept of "One Baseball" is when you go past that age 12, the participants in the market become more fragmented. with programs like pitch smart and the like, we?re going to try to get a little more unified in that space, get the groups a little more unified in that space, in the hopes that it will drive continuing participation. We've done a lot of study of what youth sports are growing and what's not. There are certain characteristics for the sports that are growing, and one of them is a unified structure in the amateur space. We're going to try to get a little more unified concept out there.

From what I have seen, teams and players that play under Little League rules at ages 11 and 12 are at a disadvantage against kids that play in leagues that utilize either NFHS or MLB rules at those ages.

The size of the field may be a factor, but not the main factor in the drop-off in participation at age 13, IMO. It is the fact that at that age all leagues are playing baseball under more advanced rules at that age. The kids coming from Little League rules are at a distinct disadvantage, since they have never played using these rules before. This can lead to discouragement, and a lot of kids decide to stop playing.

When I umpire in tournaments that use either NFHS or MLB rules, the teams from leagues using Little League rules are clearly unprepared. Leading, stealing, and balk rules are completely foreign to them, and their coaches aren't really able to help the kids because they aren't used to those rules, either. The games are usually out of hand early, and I usually quietly get an OK from the coach of the team that is familiar with the more advanced rules to be OK with it if we overlook balks in order to get through this game.

Little League rules technically allow for "stealing"

but the runner can't leave his base until after the pitch crosses home plate. It pretty much isn't so much "stealing" as it is advancement on a passed ball or wild pitch.

I think that, rather than a unification effort to convert other leagues to conform to the Little League model, as the Commissioner is suggesting, the results might be better if Little League were to conform with the other leagues, and begin using advanced rules a year or two earlier. This would level the playing field, IMO, and perhaps reduce the large numbers of kids that quit playing at the 13-14 age group. Just my opinion.

From what I have seen, teams and players that play under Little League rules at ages 11 and 12 are at a disadvantage against kids that play in leagues that utilize either NFHS or MLB rules at those ages.

The size of the field may be a factor, but not the main factor in the drop-off in participation at age 13, IMO. It is the fact that at that age all leagues are playing baseball under more advanced rules at that age. The kids coming from Little League rules are at a distinct disadvantage, since they have never played using these rules before. This can lead to discouragement, and a lot of kids decide to stop playing.

When I umpire in tournaments that use either NFHS or MLB rules, the teams from leagues using Little League rules are clearly unprepared. Leading, stealing, and balk rules are completely foreign to them, and their coaches aren't really able to help the kids because they aren't used to those rules, either. The games are usually out of hand early, and I usually quietly get an OK from the coach of the team that is familiar with the more advanced rules to be OK with it if we overlook balks in order to get through this game.

Little League rules technically allow for "stealing"

but the runner can't leave his base until after the pitch crosses home plate. It pretty much isn't so much "stealing" as it is advancement on a passed ball or wild pitch.

I think that, rather than a unification effort to convert other leagues to conform to the Little League model, as the Commissioner is suggesting, the results might be better if Little League were to conform with the other leagues, and begin using advanced rules a year or two earlier. This would level the playing field, IMO, and perhaps reduce the large numbers of kids that quit playing at the 13-14 age group. Just my opinion.

I don't necessarily agree that the LL is a bad model. I think there are pluses and minuses to both sides. The LL playing on a smaller field is faster and more like higher level baseball. What I mean is pitching from 46 feet and bases at 60 or 65 (I don't recall exactly) it's obvious that the ball gets on you faster. I think the problem you highlighted is two groups playing with different rules. The non LL teams may struggle if they had to play by LL rules too. I think the larger issue that he is speaking of is the many different rules and dimensions that are used at the upper levels.

Having said all that, I think that its probably too simplistic thinking as to why there is a drop off. My personal opinion is that at that age the different in talent becomes more pronounced and the pitching gets noticeably better and the kids that struggle fade away. I also think that at this age many kids that are just playing because mom and dad want them to, are allowed to stop playing as the parent realizes that little Johnny is not going to be the next Cal Jr.

I don't necessarily agree that the LL is a bad model. I think there are pluses and minuses to both sides. The LL playing on a smaller field is faster and more like higher level baseball. What I mean is pitching from 46 feet and bases at 60 or 65 (I don't recall exactly) it's obvious that the ball gets on you faster. I think the problem you highlighted is two groups playing with different rules. The non LL teams may struggle if they had to play by LL rules too. I think the larger issue that he is speaking of is the many different rules and dimensions that are used at the upper levels.

Having said all that' date=' I think that its probably too simplistic thinking as to why there is a drop off. My personal opinion is that at that age the different in talent becomes more pronounced and the pitching gets noticeably better and the kids that struggle fade away. I also think that at this age many kids that are just playing because mom and dad want them to, are allowed to stop playing as the parent realizes that little Johnny is not going to be the next Cal Jr.[/quote']

I don't believe that kids want to stop playing baseball. I believe that it is a matter of opportunity and priority. Everyone who has played baseball loves it.

I don't necessarily agree that the LL is a bad model. I think there are pluses and minuses to both sides. The LL playing on a smaller field is faster and more like higher level baseball. What I mean is pitching from 46 feet and bases at 60 or 65 (I don't recall exactly) it's obvious that the ball gets on you faster. I think the problem you highlighted is two groups playing with different rules. The non LL teams may struggle if they had to play by LL rules too. I think the larger issue that he is speaking of is the many different rules and dimensions that are used at the upper levels.

Having said all that' date=' I think that its probably too simplistic thinking as to why there is a drop off. My personal opinion is that at that age the different in talent becomes more pronounced and the pitching gets noticeably better and the kids that struggle fade away. I also think that at this age many kids that are just playing because mom and dad want them to, are allowed to stop playing as the parent realizes that little Johnny is not going to be the next Cal Jr.[/quote']

All groups use a smaller field at ages 11 and 12 than at ages 13 and 14. There is no real difference among groups in that regard. The difference is pitchers using LL rules are totally unprepared for playing at age 13 when they need to pitch from the stretch, hold runners, and not balk. And they aren't as comfortable taking leads as base-runners, either. I see this first hand. It is by no means over-simplistic. It is a fact.

Kids that normally play by advanced rules would have no trouble playing by LL rules. They wouldn't have as much fun, probably, but they would be under no disadvantage. Kids that play by LL rules, however, are at a distinct disadvantage when they play by NFHS or MLB rules. I really don't understand why 11 and 12 year olds are still playing by the same rules as the 9 year olds in Little League. The leagues I umpire that use NFHS, as well as the ones that use MLB rules, both have shown me that kids can easily learn at 11 and 12 to play by the more advanced rules. Perhaps they can even learn more easily at those ages than at 13. Some kids that have pitched from the windup for every pitch their whole life have real trouble adapting to pitching from the set position at age 13.

Sure, there will be kids that stop playing each year as they grow older for a wide range of reasons. I'm just saying that a kid with talent becoming discouraged because he is behind other kids as a result of the league he played in last year as a 12 year old playing by the same rules as the 9 year old kids is a reason that can be avoided, IMO.

Number 5, I guess we will agree to disagree. In my experience the LL rules don't put the kids at a disadvantage. There maybe a short-term adjustment when making the step to leads, pick-offs etc... But, they are overcome rather quickly. A few games or as much as half a season and the better players have pretty much caught up. Now if you take a LL team and put them in a tournament under different rules then I agree that they are under a disadvantage as any team would be. I am certain that if you take a player who is used to hitting off a pitcher that's 50-52 feet away and he is in a tournament wherein the pitcher is only 46 feet away then they would struggle to hit for a period of time. My overarching point was that MLB is suggesting that there be one set of rules and I agree with that point.

11-12 year olds that love the game and follow it are well aware of the rule changes once they move to the larger field. They watch MLB and know all about pitching from the stretch, balks, leadoffs, etc. They transition pretty quickly once showed the proper way to play by those rules.

The dropoff occurs around this age due to the increased demand of specialization of athletes in America today. At 13-14, kids are choosing one sport or another, joining travel teams, committing a huge amount of time and their parents' money playing primarily that one sport. The day of the three-sport letterman high school athletics is quickly fading, and it's a shame. Baseball is losing tons of kids to niche sports like lacrosse and ice hockey, along with the ones they already lose to football, basketball, and (Lord save us) soccer.

Number 5' date=' I guess we will agree to disagree. In my experience the LL rules don't put the kids at a disadvantage. There maybe a short-term adjustment when making the step to leads, pick-offs etc... But, they are overcome rather quickly. A few games or as much as half a season [b']and the better players have pretty much caught up[/b]. Now if you take a LL team and put them in a tournament under different rules then I agree that they are under a disadvantage as any team would be. I am certain that if you take a player who is used to hitting off a pitcher that's 50-52 feet away and he is in a tournament wherein the pitcher is only 46 feet away then they would struggle to hit for a period of time. My overarching point was that MLB is suggesting that there be one set of rules and I agree with that point.

I think that's the point. Yeah the better players are fine but the borderline guys aren't and end up quitting and don't give themselves the opportunity to develop and improve.

Number 5' date=' I guess we will agree to disagree. In my experience the LL rules don't put the kids at a disadvantage. There maybe a short-term adjustment when making the step to leads, pick-offs etc... But, they are overcome rather quickly. A few games or as much as half a season and the better players have pretty much caught up. Now if you take a LL team and put them in a tournament under different rules then I agree that they are under a disadvantage as any team would be. I am certain that if you take a player who is used to hitting off a pitcher that's 50-52 feet away and he is in a tournament wherein the pitcher is only 46 feet away then they would struggle to hit for a period of time. My overarching point was that MLB is suggesting that there be one set of rules and I agree with that point.[/quote']

Yes, we will certainly continue to disagree. I'm not even sure why you are disagreeing. You have stated no reason for 11 and 12 year old players to continue playing with U-9 and u-10 rules when everything shows that they are ready to learn and play by the more advanced rules. As I have told you, non-LL leagues play by either NFHS or MLB rules and do just fine. I can think of no reason whatsoever to hold them back. You disagree with me, fine - but why?

I don't believe that kids want to stop playing baseball. I believe that it is a matter of opportunity and priority. Everyone who has played baseball loves it.

I do not believe your last sentence to be true. From personal experience

Yes, we will certainly continue to disagree. I'm not even sure why you are disagreeing. You have stated no reason for 11 and 12 year old players to continue playing with U-9 and u-10 rules when everything shows that they are ready to learn and play by the more advanced rules. As I have told you, non-LL leagues play by either NFHS or MLB rules and do just fine. I can think of no reason whatsoever to hold them back. You disagree with me, fine - but why?

There are more than just 3 different sets of rules.

You keep mentioning LL, NHFS, MLB ( i have officiated those games by their rules.)

But there is also the pony league and college. There are differences among all of them. I have officiated those games. Trust me - as an umpire that is very confusing - to know all the rules and exceptions to the other leagues

What is NFHS? I played what was at the time called Bambino, but is now called Cal Ripken. The rules were very similar to little league except some procedural stuff like mound visits. I believe that Cal Ripken leagues now play on 75 foot base paths for 12 year olds so the jump is gradual.

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There are more than just 3 different sets of rules.

You keep mentioning LL, NHFS, MLB ( i have officiated those games by their rules.)

But there is also the pony league and college. There are differences among all of them. I have officiated those games. Trust me - as an umpire that is very confusing - to know all the rules and exceptions to the other leagues

Well, there are also Cal Ripken and Babe Ruth, but they are very similar in scope and progression to Little League/Pony League. I'm not familiar with any rec leagues or travel leagues that use NCAA rules for 11-12 year-olds. Doesn't mean that there aren't any - just that I've not seen or heard of it before. There are plenty that employ NFHS rules, and others that employ MLB rules.

Yes, there are minor differences from association to association that umpires have to adapt to, but whether or not a league plays by rules allowing leads, steals, and balks is a major difference that has a major impact on the games, as well as the learning curve of the kids.

Well, there are also Cal Ripken and Babe Ruth, but they are very similar in scope and progression to Little League/Pony League. I'm not familiar with any rec leagues or travel leagues that use NCAA rules for 11-12 year-olds. Doesn't mean that there aren't any - just that I've not seen or heard of it before. There are plenty that employ NFHS rules, and others that employ MLB rules.

Yes, there are minor differences from association to association that umpires have to adapt to, but whether or not a league plays by rules allowing leads, steals, and balks is a major difference that has a major impact on the games, as well as the learning curve of the kids.

I am sorry for the confusion.

I was just talking about the various leagues without thinking about age groups and their rules differences. I apologize!

And think you for bringing up Babe Ruth and Cal Ripken leagues. I have done those as well

Also NFHS is High School Baseball for the guy asking earlier.

National Federation (of) High School Rules (I think)

Yes, we will certainly continue to disagree. I'm not even sure why you are disagreeing. You have stated no reason for 11 and 12 year old players to continue playing with U-9 and u-10 rules when everything shows that they are ready to learn and play by the more advanced rules. As I have told you, non-LL leagues play by either NFHS or MLB rules and do just fine. I can think of no reason whatsoever to hold them back. You disagree with me, fine - but why?