Rob Neyer: Pete Rose and John Dowd

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/baseball-joe/blog/john-dowd-s-box-of-ill-logic-032315

Interviews with Dowd and others reveal this: Rose could have avoided his eventual conviction on tax evasion and his five months in prison ? in addition to his lifetime ban from baseball ? if he had only come clean in 1989.

It was fairly common knowledge back then that Giamatti was open to a suspension for Rose if the Reds manager would admit to gambling on baseball and enter treatment for his gambling addiction.

Yet, according to Dowd, it went further than that. Dowd now says he and Giamatti worked with federal prosecutors and even the FBI to work out a deal that any pending charges for tax evasion against Rose would be dropped if he came clean.

In addition, FBI agents worked behind the scenes to ensure that Rose's gambling debts with the New Jersey loan sharks and bookies that numbered in the hundreds of thousands would be forgiven, Dowd now says.

"We never got a chance to finalize the deal or figure anything out because Pete got in his own way and his lawyers shut us down," Dowd said. "And throughout the whole process, (Rose's attorney) Reuven Katz and all of them thought they could strong arm us and Bart, this Yale professor. But they found out that Bart had steel in his backbone."

Got all that? If you believe Dowd, Rose's real crime wasn't the gambling; it's that he wouldn't accept a plea bargain.

He bet on baseball.

He bet on his own team.

He sometimes didn't bet on his own team.

He willingly accepted his lifetime ban.

His behavior since his ban has, at best, been a mixed bag.

I see no reason to allow a return.

I think the main reason he wants back in is so he can get into the HoF, so he can charge more for his autograph.

I wonder how many pitchers he overworked because he had a bet on the game.

I may not be in the majority on this, but I believe a person's entry into the hall of fame should be based on playing ability and not on character.

I may not be in the majority on this' date=' but I believe a person's entry into the hall of fame should be based on playing ability and not on character.[/quote']

I think they should have a Hall of Shame at the Hall of Fame for all of the great but dishonored players.

I may not be in the majority on this' date=' but I believe a person's entry into the hall of fame should be based on playing ability and not on character.[/quote']

I'm fine with that. The Hall made the rule and it's their rule. I would rather see him in the Hall and out of baseball then out of the Hall and back in baseball.

I think they should have a Hall of Shame at the Hall of Fame for all of the great but dishonored players.

Only if Carl Mays gets in.

And Andy Pettitte.

I'm fine with that. The Hall made the rule and it's their rule. I would rather see him in the Hall and out of baseball then out of the Hall and back in baseball.

Agreed. I have zero sympathy for Rose in terms of returning to baseball in any capacity. The way he handled things after being caught red-handed gambling on the game was just abysmal.

We as a nation are pretty forgiving people. There's been countless instances of people making major mistakes and being forgiven if they actually take responsibility for their actions and live their lives in a positive way going forward. I forgive Pete Rose for what he did, but there are consequences for your actions, which include being left out of an arbitrary Hall of Fame. Plenty of guys deserve to be in the HOF that don't have the scandals attached to their names that Pete Rose does. That doesn't make their accomplishments any lesser because they aren't in the Hall of Fame. Nobody can erase his hits record, but I think it's just that his career as a whole is remembered as well, good and bad.

Fame and infamy are closely related, but not exactly the same.

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/baseball-joe/blog/john-dowd-s-box-of-ill-logic-032315

I'll always believe John Dowd, and not Pete Rose.

We as a nation are pretty forgiving people. There's been countless instances of people making major mistakes and being forgiven if they actually take responsibility for their actions and live their lives in a positive way going forward. I forgive Pete Rose for what he did, but there are consequences for your actions, which include being left out of an arbitrary Hall of Fame. Plenty of guys deserve to be in the HOF that don't have the scandals attached to their names that Pete Rose does. That doesn't make their accomplishments any lesser because they aren't in the Hall of Fame. Nobody can erase his hits record, but I think it's just that his career as a whole is remembered as well, good and bad.

Fame and infamy are closely related, but not exactly the same.

I agree completely. Just so we keep Pettitte and Clemens and Bonds and Arod and Jeter out.

And Cito Gaston. And John Rocker. And David Phonekilla.

I agree completely. Just so we keep Pettitte and Clemons and Bonds and Arod and Jeter out.

You spelled Ortiz wrong.

You spelled Ortiz wrong.

Phonekilla? I did?

My issue with the steroid users is that their actions off the field directly affected their stats on the field. Rose's doesn't. He gambled and while that may or may not have affected the teams he was managing (there is no proof either way), it did not affect what he would go in the hall for, the hits record.

My issue with the steroid users is that their actions off the field directly affected their stats on the field. Rose's doesn't. He gambled and while that may or may not have affected the teams he was managing (there is no proof either way)' date=' it did not affect what he would go in the hall for, the hits record.[/quote']

The Hall and the lifetime ban from baseball are separate things.

The Hall specifically changed their rules to ensure the voters wouldn't put Rose in.

I will also ask you a question.

Is there a single, solitary doubt in your mind that the then player player Pete Rose used Amphetamines?