How come the Blue Jays can be competitive and the Orioles can't?

[keysersose]

When comparing the Orioles with the team they've been chasing for 8 years, how come they can put together better teams? The Blue Jays aren't a big market, they're not even in the USA.

Some how their scouts found Gustavo Chacin in Venezuala.

2005 13-9 and 5-1 This year.

They dealt for Lyle Overbay, some prospects and a pitcher with a losing record.

Their payroll is just a little smaller than the Orioles, but they are a much better team and better put together.

Some may think that 29 year old Troy Glaus is overpaid as 10 mil, but is Chris Benson really an 8.3 mil pitcher? Is Javy Lopez worth 9 mil?

It seems their gambles are more calculated and successful. AJ Burnett? He's worth a 2.2 mil gamble. Considering Bruse Chen is making 50% more.

They answer, I beleive, lies with Flannagan. Angelos gave him 72 million to spend, and he spent unwisely.

[mikezpen]

Angelos isn't the only problem here.

[NewMarketSean]

AJ Burnett? 2.2 Million? I thought he just signed a 5/55 million dollar deal.

I do agree that if Toronto can do it, the O's can do it.

But it lies with the management. For years we've ignored the farm system in favor of signing over the hill veterans who secured us 4th place every year.

They have an owner who wants to win and wants to show the fans that he wants to win and we have Angelos who is more worried with how much $$$ is in his pocket.

[Frobby]

You'd have to say the Blue Jays have been run better than the Orioles over the last 8 years. However, I think they are looking to make a "push" for the next 2-3 years to see if they can get in the race and increase their attendance. If it doesn't work, I think you'll see them cutting back on payroll.

[byrdz]

When comparing the Orioles with the team they've been chasing for 8 years, how come they can put together better teams? The Blue Jays aren't a big market, they're not even in the USA.

Some how their scouts found Gustavo Chacin in Venezuala.

2005 13-9 and 5-1 This year.

They dealt for Lyle Overbay, some prospects and a pitcher with a losing record.

Their payroll is just a little smaller than the Orioles, but they are a much better team and better put together.

Some may think that 29 year old Troy Glaus is overpaid as 10 mil, but is Chris Benson really an 8.3 mil pitcher? Is Javy Lopez worth 9 mil?

It seems their gambles are more calculated and successful. AJ Burnett? He's worth a 2.2 mil gamble. Considering Bruse Chen is making 50% more.

They answer, I beleive, lies with Flannagan. Angelos gave him 72 million to spend, and he spent unwisely.

...and what do you know? They are still in 3rd place.


Chacin has a 5.31 ERA (I think he wins by scaring opposing batters) But seriously he's won because of those hot bats; 6, 8, 10, 7, 13 runs scored in all of his wins.

Burnett will get paid much more than 2.2 so dont make it seem that just because his contract is backloaded that he wont get paid a ton of money. Whats more, his ERA is over 6 and he's only pitched 10 innings this season. (He will be on the DL for extended periods of time every year Toronto has him. What good is a dominating pitcher if he's always on the DL?)

Also, I don't think Toronto thought they were taking a gamble at $55 million but everyone else knows that they took one.

[NewMarketSean]

...and what do you know? They are still in 3rd place.


Chacin has a 5.31 ERA (I think he wins by scaring opposing batters) But seriously he's won because of those hot bats; 6, 8, 10, 7, 13 runs scored in all of his wins.

Burnett will get paid much more than 2.2 so dont make it seem that just because his contract is backloaded that he wont get paid a ton of money. Whats more, his ERA is over 6 and he's only pitched 10 innings this season. (He will be on the DL for extended periods of time every year Toronto has him. What good is a dominating pitcher if he's always on the DL?)

Also, I don't think Toronto thought they were taking a gamble at $55 million but everyone else knows that they took one.

They took a gamble if you are looking at Burnett's contract in last year's market or the market the year before that.

Millwood got a similar deal and Ryan did too, although you could day that they overpaid for him -- a closer.

That was the going rate for pitchers last season and the BJ's decided that it was a fair deal and signed him.

And no matter whether he was injured or not, the O's should have been interested in him at the time he was on the market. They weren't for whatever reason.

If all their pitching prospects made it to the MLB and were good enough to stick around and Burnett was blocking them, they could have always made a trade.

I think the O's are counting on most or all of their pitching prospects to crack the rotation and that just won't be the case. Few if any will make it and succeed. History teaches us this.

[RShack]

When comparing the Orioles with the team they've been chasing for 8 years, how come they can put together better teams?

It's the first half of May. Maybe we should see how the 2 teams finish before we conclude the Jays are better.

Of course, if you want to jump to a hasty conclusion based on the season so far, you will see that:
* The O's have been ravaged by injuries, and are still where they finished last year.
* The Jay's spent Steinbrenner money over the winter, and they are still where they finished last year.

So far, that doesn't sound like great TOR improvement to me....

[NewMarketSean]

It's the first half of May. Maybe we should see how the 2 teams finish before we conclude the Jays are better.

Please. I would have made that assessment on Openind Day. The BJ's have been better than us, are better than us and probably will be better than us for at least a few more years.

Open your eyes.

Of course, if you want to jump to a hasty conclusion based on the season so far, you will see that:
* The O's have been ravaged by injuries, and are still where they finished last year.
* The Jay's spent Steinbrenner money over the winter, and they are still where they finished last year.

So far, that doesn't sound like great TOR improvement to me....

If that is the case ( and remember the season ain't over, right? ) then at least they tried.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Please. I would have made that assessment on Openind Day. The BJ's have been better than us, are better than us and probably will be better than us for at least a few more years.

Open your eyes.



If that is the case ( and remember the season ain't over, right? ) then at least they tried.

And FAILED.

And that is a market that looked to be dying not too long ago, so they cannot afford to fail, especially when they are paying $102 million to a questionable starter and a closer.

And if you are going to pull out the "at least they tried" rhetoric, then make sure you give the Orioles the same credit with Konerko.

[vab]

How come the Blue Jays can be competitive and the Orioles can't?




A N G E L O S

[keysersose]

It's the first half of May. Maybe we should see how the 2 teams finish before we conclude the Jays are better.

Of course, if you want to jump to a hasty conclusion based on the season so far, you will see that:
* The O's have been ravaged by injuries, and are still where they finished last year.
* The Jay's spent Steinbrenner money over the winter, and they are still where they finished last year.

So far, that doesn't sound like great TOR improvement to me....

Not just from opening day until may 11.

How about from 1998-2005. They are better. They win more.

STEINBRENNER money??? Get Real. They increased their payroll from mid-40s to low-70s. They had accumualted capital. Something angelos has with the orioles but has been unwilling to spend on free agents, a permenant spring training and yearlong training site, South American, Carribean and Asian scouting. Ottowa probably has the worst facilities and worst climate to play ball in the International League.

The BJs improved and the O's are lucky that Tampa is their division.

[Sports Guy]

Since 2002, the closest the BJ's have been from first place is 15 games.

In 2004, we finished ahead of them(they finished last).

Yes, they have been better than us but they have hardly been competitive.

On top of that, with all of our injuries and with all the additions they made last offseason, they are only 4 games ahead of us.

[RShack]

How about from 1998-2005.

1998-2005 has nothing to do with this year, except for people who hate the owner and refuse to recognize that the franchise approach changed in 2003. Any reasonable discussion of the progress of the franchise will be focused on the current mgt, which means Flanagan. Talking about 1998 is no more relevant than talking about 1958, '68, '78, or '88... unless of course you believe in boogie-men, things that go bump in the night, and the inherent evilness of PA.

[BaltimoreTerp]

To call the Blue Jays "competative" is a little strong; they have averaged 18.5 or so games out over the past eight years. The Orioles averaged around 27, so I'm not saying we have been better, but they haven't been exactly an equal partner in the division.

[byrdz]

STEINBRENNER money??? Get Real. They increased their payroll from mid-40s to low-70s.

It's a little deceiving of what they actually spent. Both Ryans and Burnetts contracts are backloaded.

I'm not really sure why they show 2.2 as his 2006 salary as my source shows 7 and it goes to 12 per year for the remainder.


A.J. Burnett p
5 years/$55M (2006-10)

* signed as a free agent 12/05
* 06:$7M, 07:$12M, 08:$12M, 09:$12M, 10:$12M
* Burnett may opt out of the contract after 2008
* 1 year/$3.65M (2005), avoided arbitration 1/05
o $0.15M in incentives
+ $50,000 each for 190, 200 & 210 IP
* 1 year/$2.5M (2004), avoided arbitration 12/03
* 1 year/$2.5M (2003), lost arbitration 2/03 ($3.075M-$2.5M)
* 1 year/$0.3675M (2002)
* agent: Darek Braunecker & Mark Rodgers
* ML service: 6.038



B.J. Ryan p
5 years/$47M (2006-10)

* signed as a free agent 11/05 (at time of signing, largest-ever contract for a reliever)
* $10M signing bonus ($6M paid in 2006, $4M paid in 2007)
* 06:$2M, 07:$5M, 08:$10M, 09:$10M, 10:$10M
* 1 year/$2.6M (2005), plus $0.2M in incentives
* avoided arbitration 1/05
* $0.2M in incentives ($50,000 each for 45, 50, 55 & 60 games)
* $25,000 bonus for making All-Star team
* 1 year/$1.275M (2004), avoided arbitration 2/04 ($1.55M-$1M)
* 1 year/$0.7625M (2003), avoided arbitration ($0.825M-$0.7M)
* agent: John Courtright
* ML service: 6.003


I agree that Angelos needs to spend more but the question is will what Toronto did this past offseason, huge investments, make them a contender? Better still, will it make them any better than their previous seasons?