Heads up: I'll be on WNST with trade news

[square634]

I guess we have to agree to disagree, although I'm not sure how many people would support you on that one. The main difference between, say, Jim Duquette/Flanaghan and Peter Angelos is that the first two are baseball people, whereas Peter Angelos is a lawyer, who, whether successful or not at his real profession, doesn't seem to have a clue about baseball.

[Omega Supreme]

I never said that he would be the best person to make the decisions, but it is his right as owner if he wants to. I believe the team would be better run by the baseball people. However there is no direct evidence to support this because the baseball people have not been allowed to do their jobs. To assume that they would do a better job is a leap of faith, I for one am not willing to make at this time.

[Fan4Life]

I never said that he would be the best person to make the decisions, but it is his right as owner if he wants to. I believe the team would be better run by the baseball people. However there is no direct evidence to support this because the baseball people have not been allowed to do their jobs. To assume that they would do a better job is a leap of faith, I for one am not willing to make at this time.

You have 8.5 years of proof and you need more? Wow... you are a hard sell.

[davearm]

I posted this in another thread, but I'll repost it here.

Tony - OH has said that he heard from a reliable source that Angelos nixed two possible deals this year. Unfortunately, we don't know the details about the trades except that the Blue Jays were involved. However, most are in an uproar because of Angelos' meddling. As a Orioles fan, I can understand because I am tired of the losing and because I want the Orioles to change for the better. However, since I know no specific details of the players involved in these 2 deals, I have to reserve at least some judgement.

However, we do know the specifics of a trade that Flanagan and Beattie came to in principle with the Marlins at this time last year. However, Angelos also vetoed that deal. Here are the details:

AJ Burnett, Mike Lowell, and minor league outfielder Eric Reed to Baltimore in exchange for pitchers Hayden Penn, Jorge Julio, Steve Reed, Steve Kline and outfielder Larry Bigbie.

Please realize that Burnett was a free agent to be at the end of the season and was determined to test free agency.

Please note that the Marlins asked the Orioles to pick up the remainder of Lowell's salary (21.25 million) and that his stats for the year at the time were .232 avg and 4 hr and that his stats since the prior All Star Break were .253 avg and 11 hr. Angelos had asked the Marlins to pay up to half of Lowell's salary, at which the Marlins scoffed. Remember that there were also rumors about Lowell and steroids as to why his stats had declined so drastically.

The details of this trade are outlined in the following article by Jorge Arangure Jr. in the Washington Post.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...071901945.html

If you were Angelos, what would you have done on July 20, 2005?

A. OK the deal, since you think this deal was good for the Orioles.
B. OK the deal, not because you like the trade, but because you don't want to meddle.
C. Veto the deal.
D. Veto the deal and fire Flanagan and Beattie and hire yet another GM, since you don't agree with the deal and think that Flanagan and Beattie are incompetent.

Now, I think that Angelos is far from an ideal owner. Yet I think this deal was bad for the Orioles for various reasons (trading for a rental pitcher who likely would sign elsewhere at the end of the season, giving up a promising prospect after suffering through years of a poor minor league system, taking on Lowell's contract) and I agreed with Angelos decision to veto it.

I also think that Angelos and the team would have taken flack regardless of the decision. If it was A or B, fans would say how could the Orioles mortgage the future etc. If it was D, I think it would have also looked bad.

That's just my opinion. I'm curious as to what other would have done if they were in Angelos' shoes in 2005. It's a simple question. Please no waffling, no tapdancing, no what ifs, no hindsight etc. What would you have done in his shoes last year? A, B, C or D.

Seems odd that you wouldn't offer as an option the actual reason the deal didn't get done:

E. Veto the deal because the talent exchange doesn't justify the additional financial commitment.

Angelos' hangup was the money left on Lowell's contract, not the collection of players being swapped. You pointed that out yourself.

[Omega Supreme]

You misunderstand me. I think that if PA wants to run things himself, he should devote the time and energy to it. That way there aren't any complaints that it took to long to reach him or he took to long to make a decision. Then we can debate his baseball decisions. The last 8.5 years has been a mixture of hands on and hands off that has paralyzed the team. To say that they represent PA truely take an active intrest in the team... the stories coming out now does not support that.

To say that we would be a contender right now if the baseball people had total freedom over the last 8.5 years is a strech. Baseball people have been making mistakes and bad decisions in cities for a long time. I am just saying that it isn't a given that Jim Duquette/Flanaghan, or the people that came before them would have been great GMs had PA not been involved.

[square634]

I don't know what our team would look like without Angelos's meddling, but I can say this - our consistent level of incompetence for the last 9 years has only been equaled by two teams. So evidence suggests that teams with baseball people making decisions generally don't lose 9 years in a row, which also suggests that PA has done a remarkably poor job overall.

[Omega Supreme]

Well I agree for the lask 9 years PA has been doing an amazingly poor job overall . However there are two things that make PA a bad owner.

1)Micromanaging-This is what he gets beat up for the most and I agree that the wrong person wanting to run things their way could kill the team.

2)indifference-It seems that PA is in the team just for the money. While the Baltimore Orioles are a buisness, and therefor should make money, PA shows a reluctance to invest money back into the team. Also the perception that he isn't available to do his micromanaging suggests a level of indifference.

Looking at those two issues if you could fix one, which one would you fix? That is the point I am trying to make.

[badboydrake]

But we don't have to like it or go along quietly with it....

FYI.. I had read your entire post, you didn't specificaly make two points but rather jumbled them together, at least from 2 posters perspectives, so it was unclear what you were trying to say.

I didnt say you had to "go along with it" but never mind, it seems like you believe that is what I am saying.

And, Im sorry for the jumbleness, I re-read it, and had you looked at my edits would have known that I already acknowledged the mix-up.

[MP]

Also the perception that he isn't available to do his micromanaging suggests a level of indifference.

That's well worded, and it's a key point. The idea that Angelos micro-manages isn't a new one (although it's horrible to read it being confirmed in detail), but allowing it to directly interfere with the team's success is unforgiveable.

What a depressing thread!

Tony what gives?? I was at the beach for a week, internet-free. And THIS is what you have waiting for me when I get back??

[rp0806]

A close friend of mine works with a couple of the Orioles minority owners. I told my friend about Tony's comments, and his/her response was, "from they've told me about the Orioles and Angelos, that sounds exactly right." But to the other minority owners, it's just Pete being Pete. Angelos is their buddy, and they all see the Orioles as a fun toy. They're making money, so the team's reputation and performance don't really matter.

That's really the problem -- a MLB team is a multimillion dollar enterprise, but it's not a real business in a sense. Between the antitrust exemption, revenue sharing, and other factors, it's easy for these guys to make money with a subpar product. And there's no accountability: THere are no shareholders to hold them accountable and the market won't punish them. So it's easy for owners to not take the franchise seriously or make any sort of commitment to fielding a winning team.

[Tony-OH]

Tony mentioned that he spoke to another organization's scout who had seen Billy Rowell play before he was drafted and he said "He'll either be a superstar or be stuck in A-Ball".

I guess we found out which part was right.

[ScottieBaseball]

I guess we found out which part was right.

SUPERSTAR!!!

[BaltimoreTerp]

I guess we found out which part was right.

Jeez, you couldn't wait another month and make it a full five-year bump?