The Schilling HOF debate

[Moose Milligan]

I'll even add a poll. But here's Stark's link: http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=21220

IMO, he is. His big post season games override his stats and earn him a spot.

[longflyball]

Just check out the "Appearances on Leaderboards and Awards" section of his BR page. When he didn't lead the league in a given stat, he was year after year in the top five, if not second. What else do you have to do to get in?

[whatdoiget000]

The guy only has 216 career victories. And people are debating Moose's 260+.

[ElToro75]

I'll even add a poll. But here's Stark's link: http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=21220

IMO, he is. His big post season games override his stats and earn him a spot.

I also voted yes, but I think it will take him a while to get in. How long may depend on who else is on the ballot from previous years. The voters, for whatever reason they each have, never seem to vote in a large number of HOF'ers in a given year.

That's my guess as to why Fisk didn't get in until 2000. He was also on the ballot with George Brett, Nolan Ryan, and Robin Yount.

Plus, depending who retires at the end of this year, quite a few pitchers will also be on the ballot. Some with much better cases for HOF induction than Schilling has.

Year *Players eligible for the first time for BBWAA election (Towards the bottom of the page)

2009: Steve Avery, Jay Bell, Mike Bordick, John Burkett, David Cone, Ron Gant, Mark Grace, Rickey Henderson, Todd Hundley, Orlando Merced, Charles Nagy, Denny Neagle, Jesse Orosco, Dean Palmer, Dan Plesac, Rick Reed, Greg Vaughn, Mo Vaughn, Matt Williams

2010: Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Dave Burba, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, Todd Zeile

2011: Wilson Alvarez, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, Cal Eldred, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Bobby Higginson, Charles Johnson, Al Leiter, Tino Martinez, Raul Mondesi, Jose Offerman, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Paul Quantrill, Steve Reed, Kirk Rueter, Rey Sanchez, Benito Santiago, B.J. Surhoff, Ugueth Urbina, Ismael Valdez, Larry Walker, Dan Wilson

2012: Pedro Astacio, David Bell, Jeromy Burnitz, Vinny Castilla, Scott Erickson, Carl Everett, Jeff Fassero, Alex S. Gonzalez, Danny Graves, Rick Helling, Dustin Hermanson, Jose Hernandez, Brian Jordan, Matt Lawton, Bill Mueller, Terry Mulholland, Jeff Nelson, Phil Nevin, Brad Radke, Joe Randa, Tim Salmon, Ruben Sierra, J.T. Snow, Jose Vizcaino, Bernie Williams, Eric Young

2013: Sandy Alomar Jr., Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Jeff Cirillo, Royce Clayton, Roger Clemens, Jeff Conine, Steve Finley, Julio Franco, Shawn Green, Ryan Klesko, Mike Lieberthal, Kenny Lofton, Jose Mesa, Damian Miller, Eric Milton, Russ Ortiz, Neifi Perez, Mike Piazza, Reggie Sanders, Aaron Sele, Mike Stanton, Todd Walker, David Wells, Rondell White, Bob Wickman, Woody Williams

[Spoonless]

The guy only has 216 career victories. And people are debating Moose's 260+.

Pedro only has 211.

[ElToro75]

Just check out the "Appearances on Leaderboards and Awards" section of his BR page. When he didn't lead the league in a given stat, he was year after year in the top five, if not second. What else do you have to do to get in?

Unfortunately there is no "checklist", if so there'd be no debate on who is in and who is not. What fun would that be?

Some of the things they consider when they vote are:

• Dominating your position for a part of your career (not 1 or 2 years)
• Leading the league in relavent statistics
• How did they perform in the postseason
• How many All-Star games
• How does he compare to others from his era?
• How does he compare historically
• What career milestones were accomplished
• Awards earned (MVP, CY, etc.)

The guy only has 216 career victories. And people are debating Moose's 260+.

It's not about comparing one stat against one other player. It's way more complicated then that.

[Frobby]

I think he gets in, though it's not clear if he gets in on the first ballot. Certainly he's better than quite a few pitchers in the Hall of Fame. Of course, that's true of a number of pitchers who aren't in the Hall.

Clearly ahead of him - Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Martinez
Part of the same debate - Smoltz, Mussina
Down a notch - Kevin Brown, Moyer, Rogers, Pettitte

[TGO]

I think he gets in, though it's not clear if he gets in on the first ballot. Certainly he's better than quite a few pitchers in the Hall of Fame. Of course, that's true of a number of pitchers who aren't in the Hall.

Clearly ahead of him - Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Martinez
Part of the same debate - Smoltz, Mussina
Down a notch - Kevin Brown, Moyer, Rogers, Pettitte

I personally draw the line after Moyer, which probably lets in more guys than will actually get in. I know Rogers has more wins than Brown but Brown's peak was insane and he probably could have won 235 on different teams.

David Wells is missing from your list.

[RShack]

I think 3rd ballot would be about right.
If it's sooner, IMO it will be because of ESPN.

[Moose Milligan]

I think he gets in, though it's not clear if he gets in on the first ballot. Certainly he's better than quite a few pitchers in the Hall of Fame. Of course, that's true of a number of pitchers who aren't in the Hall.

Clearly ahead of him - Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Martinez
Part of the same debate - Smoltz, Mussina
Down a notch - Kevin Brown, Moyer, Rogers, Pettitte

Gotta disagree about Mussina. His ERA is higher at 3.71. Correct me if I'm wrong but if Mussina were to be elected that ERA would be the highest of anyone in the HOF and by a pretty good margin.

At any rate, Schillings postseason record dwarfs Mussina's 7-9 3.42 ERA.

Schilling also trumps him on 20 win seasons and Cy Young shares by a wide margin as well as strikeouts and k/bb ratio.

I think Smoltz is a shoe-in. He's got the ring, the hardware, the wins, and the saves. While his postseason record is 12-12, he has a 2.65 ERA so it looks like the Braves didn't score many runs for him...and it's not like the Braves did a WHOLE lot of winning in the postseason....he struck out 194 and walked 67 which is a good ratio, too.

[longflyball]

My vote reflects my belief that he should be in. I really don't know if he will get in. The writers haven't yet considered very many pitchers who have played in the "steroid era", for lack of a better word.

BTW, his career ERA+ is 42nd all-time. Better than Palmer, Marichal, Carlton, Feller, Spahn, Bunning and Perry.

[TGO]

Gotta disagree about Mussina. His ERA is higher at 3.71. Correct me if I'm wrong but if Mussina were to be elected that ERA would be the highest of anyone in the HOF and by a pretty good margin.

You are correct, but consider era. Mussina's ERA+ would be better than at least 1/3 of the Hall's pitchers.

[Moose Milligan]

You are correct, but consider era. Mussina's ERA+ would be better than at least 1/3 of the Hall's pitchers.

True.

Tell that to the voters...but ask first if they know what that means.

[orayole]

The guy only has 216 career victories. And people are debating Moose's 260+.

Wins are a product of the team not the player. Judging a pitcher by how many wins he has is beyond absurd.

[Frobby]

Wins are a product of the team not the player. Judging a pitcher by how many wins he has is beyond absurd.

It is far less absurd when you are talking about career wins, than it is when you are talking about wins in one season. Obviously, the strength of the team you played for and luck still factors into career wins, but less so than when looking at an individual season.

Here are some reasons Mussina has won 44 more games than Schilling:

1. He was better at a younger age. Moose won 36 games by the time he was 24. Schilling had won 4. So, that's +32 in Moose's column right there, and that has nothing to do with who he played for.

2. Schilling had three seasons, 1994, 1995 and 2005, where he missed significant time due to injury. He made only 41 starts in those three years. Mussina made 86 starts in those three seasons (would have been more, except for the baseball strike in 1994-95).

3. Overall, Mussina has made 83 more starts than Schilling - and counting.

Overall, I see them as two very excellent pitchers. Schilling was probably a bit better at his peak, Mussina has been more consistent and has stayed healthier. If they were both on the ballot and you had to choose only one, it would be a very close call. If you froze both of their careers right now, I suspect Schilling would get in a shade before Mussina. But Mussina's not done yet, and we have to see how much longer he pitches and what successes he achieves.