Should these be in the Olympics?

[Mackus]

Spawning off a couple other conversations, thought I would get people's opinions of whether certain sports/events should be considered Olympic-worthy.

************************************************** *********************************
NOTE**********: The poll question and thread title aren't exactly in line. Vote for events you think should NOT be in the Olympics. Apologize for the confusion, I'm on 3 hours sleep and have been up since 3:30am. ***********************************
************************************************** **********************************

Here's the full list of events:
Archery
Artistic Gymnastics
Badminton
Baseball
Basketball
Beach Volleyball
BMX
Boxing
Canoe/Kayak
Diving
Equestrian
Fencing
Field Hockey
Handball
Judo
Modern Pentathlon
Mountain Bike
Rhythmic Gymnastics
Road Cycling
Rowing
Sailing
Shooting
Soccer
Softball
Swimming
Synchronized Swimming
Table Tennis
Taekwondo
Team Handball
Tennis
Track and Field
Trampoline
Triathlon
Volleyball
Water Polo
Weightlifting
Wrestling Yachting

I could only put 10 in the poll, so if you think one not on the poll should get the boot, say so, and why.

[TyCobb]

I thought Tramopline was a joke in the poll. What the hell do they do?

[Mackus]

I think Archery, Equestrian, Shooting, Synchronized Swimming, and Table Tennis should get the boot.

Archery and Shooting are for the same reason. There isn't really any sort of athleticism involved at all, just skill. If Golf was an Olympic sport I really wouldn't have a great argument for including it and not these two, but I do think Golf should be in there.

Equestrian is because I just don't view it as something that takes a ton of athleticism from the rider, and you don't see horseracing in the Olympics. I'm sure its quite difficult, especially on the highest scale, but just don't think it should be in the Olympics.

Synchronized Swimming is, I'm sure, very difficult to do, and takes a ton of skill, I just see it as more of a dancing / competitive cheerleading type thing rather than an Olympic Event. Dancing and competitive cheer seem to be far more athletic than synchronized swimming is, so those might not even be good comparisons.

If Table Tennis is in, then so should Fooseball and Billiards. Those are basement games, take a lot of skill, but not much athleticism. I know they move around a ton more in Olympic ping pong than I do in my basement, but that still isn't enough for me to consider it Olympics-worthy.

[Mackus]

I thought Tramopline was a joke in the poll. What the hell do they do?

They do a ton of flips and things on a huge trampoline.

Its basically just an offshoot of gymnastics. Not really sure why it gets its own designation and isn't just rolled up as part of gymnastics. But I think its pretty legit, takes lots of athleticism.

Thats really my biggest qualification, how much physical athleticism does the event take.

[TyCobb]

They do a ton of flips and things on a huge trampoline.

Its basically just an offshoot of gymnastics. Not really sure why it gets its own designation and isn't just rolled up as part of gymnastics. But I think its pretty legit, takes lots of athleticism.

Thats really my biggest qualification, how much physical athleticism does the event take.

Interesting..
I think the shooting should be in. I think the focus it takes is quite remarkable.

[Mackus]

Interesting..
I think the shooting should be in. I think the focus it takes is quite remarkable.

My awful wording of the poll got you. I tried to make that note at the top of my post noticeable, but the poll is worded which of these should NOT be in the Olympics, even though the thread is argued which should.

I wonder why you feel that shooting with a gun should be an Olympic sport but shooting with a bow and arrow should not?

[TyCobb]

My awful wording of the poll got you. I tried to make that note at the top of my post noticeable, but the poll is worded which of these should NOT be in the Olympics, even though the thread is argued which should.

I wonder why you feel that shooting with a gun should be an Olympic sport but shooting with a bow and arrow should not?

I blame your wording....

I voted for everything but trampoline. I thought it should be a sport.

[Mackus]

I blame your wording....

Yeah, wording not good on this one, my bad.

[Balmer Bomber]

I think anything where a winner is determined by a judge's subjectivity should be out of the games. I got into in argument with a woman about events like that being classified as a sport. I know that would eliminate the very popular gymnastics and diving, but they should remove the human element out of the equation as much as possible. It was only 6 years ago when a judge was paid off to score one team better than another in pairs figure skating.

The shooting events should remain because there is an objective to the event. Some of you might think that it's just a live version of "Duck Hunt", but it takes an incredible amount of skill to do what they do. As a matter of fact, an American set the Olympic record today for the double trap for targets hit with 190 out of 200. But he shoots for a living by being a soldier in the US Army.

[sportsfan14]

I like Mackus' offense/defense break down. Straegy, athleticism, competition, etc also factor in. Here is how I'd organize them:

Out:
Archery- I don't buy this as a sport.

As far as I can tell, it is one thing- precision. Its one type of repeated motion, essentially over and over again. (Bias alert- I am a golfer) Because of this aspect, comparing archery to golf is crazy.

Also, no-one is trying to stop/block you. Archery is like having a free throw shooting contest. Precision and focus. Over and over.

My lack of knowledge about archery might be showing here, so this argument could be completely blown out of the water, but as far as I know, there is no strategy whatsoever. You shoot the arrow to the target. No gameplan. Your opponents don’t matter at all. You just shoot.

Shooting- see Archery. Also, what makes shooting and archery different than darts?

Equestrian- A lot of the “sport” revolves around the horse (i.e, not the “athlete”). I’m not impressed. Doesn’t seem Olympic to me. There is no defense. Not really any strategy. Are the athletes at all tired at the end?

Borderline:

BMX- Definitely requires athleticism, racing is obviously sport…the main question is whether or not this new wave of X Games style events belong in the Olympics. I don’t feel strongly either way.

Trampoline- Should be part of gymnastics as Mackus said. I don’t have much respect for it right now, because, really, who trains their whole life to put together an Olympic quality trampoline routine? I don’t think sports should be in until the level of competition is pretty high or people really care about it, but this is definitely an athletic event.

Syncro- Takes tons of athleticism, coordination, practice, etc no doubt. I hate it when medals are decided arbitrarily though. So much of the routine is trying to make it look nice and impress the judges, seems kind of stupid to me. Similar to diving (and snycro diving)

Weight lifting- Athleticism? Check. Defense? Nope. Strategy? Nope. Being an athlete isn’t about just building muscle…its what you do with that muscle. I don’t think it is a sport, but an argument can be made that its still Olympic worthy, as it crowns the world champion in something that takes an athletic skill.

In:

Water Polo- Offense/defense, strategy, incredible athleticism (extremely tiring, takes fantastic conditioning)…there’s no doubt about this one imo.

Fencing- Should definitely be in. Its got Offense/defense, and strategy. Also, while precision is key, it also requires great timing, reflexes, agility, etc.

Table Tennis- Its got offense/defense aspects and strategy, and it does require some athleticism, I don’t see why it wouldn’t be in. The precision is takes to put the perfect amount of spin on the ball is incredible. Also requires great reflexes, coordination, and some endurance (in the Olympics at least).

A common trait between these three is the changing environment. Every movement changes the water polo layout. Same in fencing. Every hit changes the complexion of every point in ping pong. This trait is shared by undeniable sports such as football, baseball, basketball, hockey, etc.

Archery, shooting, and equestrian, all have the course or targets given at the beginning, and they are static.

Btw, since this may have been what prompted this thread:

Badminton is definitely a sport. Offense/defense, strategy, coordination, strength, conditioning, very similar to tennis. Not really at all similar to playing at a BBQ.

[mweb]

I like Mackus' offense/defense break down. Straegy, athleticism, competition, etc also factor in. Here is how I'd organize them:

Out:
Archery- I don't buy this as a sport.

As far as I can tell, it is one thing- precision. Its one type of repeated motion, essentially over and over again. (Bias alert- I am a golfer) Because of this aspect, comparing archery to golf is crazy.

Also, no-one is trying to stop/block you. Archery is like having a free throw shooting contest. Precision and focus. Over and over.

My lack of knowledge about archery might be showing here, so this argument could be completely blown out of the water, but as far as I know, there is no strategy whatsoever. You shoot the arrow to the target. No gameplan. Your opponents don’t matter at all. You just shoot.

Shooting- see Archery. Also, what makes shooting and archery different than darts?

Equestrian- A lot of the “sport” revolves around the horse (i.e, not the “athlete”). I’m not impressed. Doesn’t seem Olympic to me. There is no defense. Not really any strategy. Are the athletes at all tired at the end?

Borderline:

BMX- Definitely requires athleticism, racing is obviously sport…the main question is whether or not this new wave of X Games style events belong in the Olympics. I don’t feel strongly either way.

Trampoline- Should be part of gymnastics as Mackus said. I don’t have much respect for it right now, because, really, who trains their whole life to put together an Olympic quality trampoline routine? I don’t think sports should be in until the level of competition is pretty high or people really care about it, but this is definitely an athletic event.

Syncro- Takes tons of athleticism, coordination, practice, etc no doubt. I hate it when medals are decided arbitrarily though. So much of the routine is trying to make it look nice and impress the judges, seems kind of stupid to me. Similar to diving (and snycro diving)

Weight lifting- Athleticism? Check. Defense? Nope. Strategy? Nope. Being an athlete isn’t about just building muscle…its what you do with that muscle. I don’t think it is a sport, but an argument can be made that its still Olympic worthy, as it crowns the world champion in something that takes an athletic skill.

In:

Water Polo- Offense/defense, strategy, incredible athleticism (extremely tiring, takes fantastic conditioning)…there’s no doubt about this one imo.

Fencing- Should definitely be in. Its got Offense/defense, and strategy. Also, while precision is key, it also requires great timing, reflexes, agility, etc.

Table Tennis- Its got offense/defense aspects and strategy, and it does require some athleticism, I don’t see why it wouldn’t be in. The precision is takes to put the perfect amount of spin on the ball is incredible. Also requires great reflexes, coordination, and some endurance (in the Olympics at least).

A common trait between these three is the changing environment. Every movement changes the water polo layout. Same in fencing. Every hit changes the complexion of every point in ping pong. This trait is shared by undeniable sports such as football, baseball, basketball, hockey, etc.

Archery, shooting, and equestrian, all have the course or targets given at the beginning, and they are static.

Btw, since this may have been what prompted this thread:

Badminton is definitely a sport. Offense/defense, strategy, coordination, strength, conditioning, very similar to tennis. Not really at all similar to playing at a BBQ.

I pretty much agree with this whole post.

The shooting and the horse events are the one's that think definitely should not be in.

Out of your borderline category, the only one I voted for was Synchronized Swimming, which I agree with Mackus, it's basicall like competitive cheer leading in the water.

I don't see any good argument for table tennis being kicked out, it's certainly a sport and involves tremendous hand/eye coordination. The other two are no brainers to stay in as well.

[Mackus]

I don't see any good argument for table tennis being kicked out, it's certainly a sport and involves tremendous hand/eye coordination. The other two are no brainers to stay in as well.

Its borderline on the athleticism-test for me. The physical action in the game seems more like skill than athleticism to me. I won't begrudge anybody who thinks its athletic enough to be included though. And I won't argue that any of the things on my list require anything less than world-class skill.

As far as Balmer Bomber's "no judged events argument":
I would agree with you that events that are won/lost based on a judges decision or a timed or measured event don't count as sports (assuming there is no defense, a judged boxing match passes my test). But, they are still certainly athletic competitions, IMO, and therefore deserve to be in the Olympics.

If you make the "human error" argument about the judging, well baseball, basketball, football, and hockey are all judged by humans as well. The judging is designed to be as regulated as possible, so I don't think just because sometimes the judges make mistakes (or far more rarely, are sometimes corrupt) is a valid argument against.

[mweb]

Its borderline on the athleticism-test for me. The physical action in the game seems more like skill than athleticism to me. I won't begrudge anybody who thinks its athletic enough to be included though. And I won't argue that any of the things on my list require anything less than world-class skill.

As far as Balmer Bomber's "no judged events argument":
I would agree with you that events that are won/lost based on a judges decision or a timed or measured event don't count as sports (assuming there is no defense, a judged boxing match passes my test). But, they are still certainly athletic competitions, IMO, and therefore deserve to be in the Olympics.

If you make the "human error" argument about the judging, well baseball, basketball, football, and hockey are all judged by humans as well. The judging is designed to be as regulated as possible, so I don't think just because sometimes the judges make mistakes (or far more rarely, are sometimes corrupt) is a valid argument against.

Hand/eye coordination is part of athleticism, and they do need quickness and hitting power(although I'll admit that probably doesn't require much athleticism). I would say it's a skill in a similiar way hitting a baseball is a skill. Obviously the power aspect is much greater in baseball though.

[Balmer Bomber]

If you make the "human error" argument about the judging, well baseball, basketball, football, and hockey are all judged by humans as well. The judging is designed to be as regulated as possible, so I don't think just because sometimes the judges make mistakes (or far more rarely, are sometimes corrupt) is a valid argument against.

I may have gone a bit to far as to say they don't belong in the Olympics, because it's called the Olympics Games not the Olympic Sports.

Now as for the human element, with team sports such as baseball, basketball..., you have chances to overcome the human errors, unless Tim Donaghy is heavily involved. I'm talking about whether you win or lose depends directly on a judges score as opposed to an ump making the wrong call at third base.

[Mackus]

Now as for the human element, with team sports such as baseball, basketball..., you have chances to overcome the human errors, unless Tim Donaghy is heavily involved. I'm talking about whether you win or lose depends directly on a judges score as opposed to an ump making the wrong call at third base.

Thats a valid point, but the actual judging of the Olympic judged events, like diving or gymnastics, is much more rigorously dictated by the rules than any of the refereeing that goes on in any of the major sports over here.

You almost never hear the commentators, athletes, or fans complaining about someone getting too low or too high of a score. They are so specifically set up that there is nearly no room for the bias of any official. Its basically as close to machine-judged as is humanly possible.