The GOAT

[Sanfran327]

I realize that this isn't exactly the right forum for this discussion, what with home-town bias being as it is, but try to answer this question objectively:

If the Colts win this Super Bowl, is the discussion of the Greatest NFL Quarterback of All Time over?

With his record 4th MVP award, I think it already is. I don't think we've ever seen anything like Peyton Manning before, nor do I think we will ever again. Manning is the perfect storm at QB, because he's got every physical tool you'd want in a QB (yes, even a little bit of mobility), but he's also an absolute football nerd, and his only desire is success.

[Mackus]

It'll obviously never be over, people will always debate things and different people will define greatness differently.

However, I think Peyton's case would be very strong if he wins a 2nd Superbowl.

That 2nd title really elevates him to a very small plateau of quarterbacks, and he's got more statistics and numbers than almost all of them.

If he ends with just the one championship though, that will be enough to prevent him from the #1 spot in many people's eyes.

[Sanfran327]

It'll obviously never be over, people will always debate things and different people will define greatness differently.

However, I think Peyton's case would be very strong if he wins a 2nd Superbowl.

That 2nd title really elevates him to a very small plateau of quarterbacks, and he's got more statistics and numbers than almost all of them.

This is true. But another ring could come pretty close.

I will say this: it seems that there is a pretty worthwhile discussion at every position in the NFL but two. However, I think it's safe to say that Jerry Rice and Deion Sanders are the greatest WR and CB ever. Winning another title puts Peyton Manning in that company.

[Moose Milligan]

I think the championship tally is pretty overrated, especially in the NFL.

Look at it this way. Terry Bradshaw won 4. Who was a better QB, him or Dan Marino? Bradshaws stats aren't all that impressive. While he was a very good QB, he certainly wasn't Marino. And it's not Marino's fault that the Dolphins couldn't properly construct a team around him.

Same with Joe Namath...he threw more career interceptions than touchdowns and people consider him an all time great!

No one debates Favre's greatness and he's got only one ring.

Manning has to be in anyones top 3 debate. For me, it's neck and neck with him and Montana.

[DuffMan]

This poll is heresy and I refuse to answer.

19>18

[Mackus]

I think the championship tally is pretty overrated, especially in the NFL.

Look at it this way. Terry Bradshaw won 4. Who was a better QB, him or Dan Marino? Bradshaws stats aren't all that impressive. While he was a very good QB, he certainly wasn't Marino. And it's not Marino's fault that the Dolphins couldn't properly construct a team around him.

Same with Joe Namath...he threw more career interceptions than touchdowns and people consider him an all time great!

No one debates Favre's greatness and he's got only one ring.

Manning has to be in anyones top 3 debate. For me, it's neck and neck with him and Montana.

I think to be the best of all time, you probably should have to have both a claim as a top-5 or so guy in terms of both titles and the stats/numbers. So I don't really think you can consider Favre or Manning (if he only wins the 1) as the best of all time, since they don't have the Superbowl rings to back it up despite being in the top 5 in terms of just shear numbers. I also don't think you can consider Bradshaw the best of all time because despite the rings, his numbers don't compare.

If Manning gets to 2 or 3 then I think he's right up there with Montana (or if Favre does, for that matter) and maybe even ahead of him in some people's opinions because of his better numbers.

Its not exactly fair to quarterbacks that didn't have great teams around them to insist on having both a lot of rings and a lot of stats, but we're talking about the #1 of all time here, not just HOF or saying a guy is great.

[NewMarketSean]

IMO, he has to win 3 Super Bowls to even be in the discussion.

Montana has 4
Brady has 3
Aikman has 3 (although he is not even considered to be a GOAT, but it proves that Manning needs to win more to be in the discussion)
Ben R has 2

Manning is the best statistical QB right now, hands down. If I am building a team, I am picking him as the QB...but that doesn't mean he is the best ever.

[Mackus]

IMO, he has to win 3 Super Bowls to even be in the discussion.

Montana has 4
Brady has 3
Aikman has 3 (although he is not even considered to be a GOAT, but it proves that Manning needs to win more to be in the discussion)
Ben R has 2

Manning is the best statistical QB right now, hands down. If I am building a team, I am picking him as the QB...but that doesn't mean he is the best ever.

If he gets 2 then I think he can be in the discussion. That would tie him for 5th all time (right?) with a bunch of other guys. Only a few guys have more than 2, and if Manning is sitting there with 5 or 6 MVPs by that point, I think you could make a solid argument that him and his 2 rings have a better resume than Montana and his 4. Although of course, you could argue the opposite as well.

If he gets 3, then I think he may be the favorite and if he ties him with 4, he definitely passes Montana. That's a long ways away though, lets see if he can get the 2nd this year.

[NewMarketSean]

If he gets 2 then I think he can be in the discussion. That would tie him for 5th all time (right?) with a bunch of other guys. Only a few guys have more than 2, and if Manning is sitting there with 5 or 6 MVPs by that point, I think you could make a solid argument that him and his 2 rings have a better resume than Montana and his 4. Although of course, you could argue the opposite as well.

If he gets 3, then I think he may be the favorite and if he ties him with 4, he definitely passes Montana. That's a long ways away though, lets see if he can get the 2nd this year.

My somewhat nit-picky thing with Manning is his average TD/INT ratio in the playoffs. And during the season they won the SB, he played poorly aside from the second half of the AFC Championship Game. As of today, Manning has not played as well in the playoffs as he has in the regular season. Guys like Brady and Warner and Montana have blown Manning out of the water in the playoffs. They stepped up their game while Manning has trailed off in the playoffs.

[geschinger]

My somewhat nit-picky thing with Manning is his average TD/INT ratio in the playoffs. And during the season they won the SB, he played poorly aside from the second half of the AFC Championship Game. As of today, Manning has not played as well in the playoffs as he has in the regular season. Guys like Brady and Warner and Montana have blown Manning out of the water in the playoffs. They stepped up their game while Manning has trailed off in the playoffs.

I know you mentioned strictly TD/INT ratio but when you compare everything I don't know that blown away is the right description. I believe that now with Brady's subpar performance this year that Manning's QB rating in the postseason is higher than Brady's.

[Hank Scorpio]

He's certainly the greatest I've ever seen in person.

[YardBirds13]

Marino was Manning 15 years earlier, just without the brilliant front office and great teams.

Watch an old Marino game. He acted EXACTLY like Manning does now. Directed traffic at the line, got after his teammates, put up ridiculous numbers.

Not his fault they never had a D worth a crap.

People who kill him for not having a ring are the same people who kill guys like Bonds or Griffey and say they can't be an all time great without a ring.

IT IS A TEAM SPORT!!!

[Sanfran327]

Just saw a compelling top 10 list:

1.Montana
2.Brady
3.Steve Young
4.Peyton Manning (this is one was complicated cuz he's the best regular season QB ever but in the playoffs he isn't as good)
5.Marino
6.Elway
7.Favre
8.Kurt Warner
9.Jim Kelly
10.Warren Moon

I'd try to find some room for Drew Brees in a year or two, personally, and I might flip Warner and Favre, but this is a nice list.

[SammyBirdland]

It's hard to define "greatest quarterback". I will say that Peyton Manning had command of his entire offense unlike any quarterback I've witnessed in my lifetime.

[ShaneDawg85]

Just saw a compelling top 10 list:

1.Montana
2.Brady
3.Steve Young
4.Peyton Manning (this is one was complicated cuz he's the best regular season QB ever but in the playoffs he isn't as good)
5.Marino
6.Elway
7.Favre
8.Kurt Warner
9.Jim Kelly
10.Warren Moon

I'd try to find some room for Drew Brees in a year or two, personally, and I might flip Warner and Favre, but this is a nice list.

Is this all-time, or in the Super Bowl era? If it really is all-time I struggle to understand how Unitas is not one there, generational differences and all.

While I love Steve Young and think he often gets overlooked in these types of debates and greatness, I don't think he should be as high as #3 over guys like Peyton and Elway. Although, I have always felt and am glad to see that somebody believes he was better than Favre.