I'm slow to judge, but Trembley officially lost me tonight

[Lucky Jim]

Fellas, we are going to agree to disagree. You guys are not going to see my point of view. Oh well...........

I think we see it. You've tagged anything above 25 runs with some unquantifiable, nebulous, and unsupported value and said that it's worth wasting your best pitcher's innings on avoiding it.

And all of us disagree and think it's ridiculous.

Disagreeing with you is sometimes more than "not seeing a point." It's recognizing the point, considering it, and rejecting it emphatically.

No big deal, really. You've expressed your idea of this value. I just don't see any basis for it. (I mean, 1B giving us grief?)

[Agent0]

Dave Trembley seems to be the kind of guy who won't save the pen in a 30-3 loss by using Chad Moeller to pitch the last two innings, because that's not respecting the game. He's the kind of guy who probably wouldn't have ended up with Lenn Sakata catching (and subsequently hitting the game winning homer), because that's not playing the game right. He wouldn't play Jon Knott in left because his defense was below average, but he was fine with Jay Payton because everyone strikes out but Major Leaguers aren't supposed to look lost in the field.

That's the kind of thing I meant. Dave is a conventional manager, one who seems like he'd rather be at a disadvantage while managing conventionally, than take a chance on winning while also increasing his odds of being embarrassed.

The problem in selecting a new manager is that most people are just like Dave.

I know what you're driving at but these examples will just confuse people. Moeller wasn't on the team in '07 and the guys that DID relieve in that game were pretty much dead weight anyway. Yeah, you won't find many managers that would pull their last catcher and have a second baseman behind that plate, so that's not on just Trembley. Beside, he's either had ramon Hernandez or Matt Weiters so it's not like he's really been put into a position where a PH for the catcher was a huge upgrade. He's PH for guys and ended up with goofy defenses and no DH, if that counts in your book. Lastly, Jon Knott didn't play because he sucked both at the plate and in the field (as opposed to JP who could play some D). Knott wasn't even brought up that September when rosters expanded.

I'm not a Trembley guy at all, but you could have found more pertinent examples.

Yea. All that.

I really think they need to follow (a part of) the 1980s Steinbrenner model. Obviously not the wacko firing and hiring of Billy Martin every six months, but the willingness to inject a spark by hiring the anti-manager. Big Stein would fire Martin, who was an obsessive, controlling, out-of-control jerk, and replace him with somebody like Dick Howser, who was kind of like your nice uncle Fred who gives kids lollypops. The Yanks would win, but when the nice guy routine got old and the millionaires started ruling the clubhouse he'd dump the manager and hire Martin, or some other drill sargent.

This is an oversimplification, but the O's need the anti-Trembley now.

What's that? I guess it's an experienced major league manager who has no problem taking guys to task in a public, open way, and someone who just doesn't care about "playing the game right" when it might conflict with winning.

I'm not sure who that is, but that's my recommendation.

This is pretty common, to cycle from a "player's coach" to a "taskmaster". It's done all the time in the NFL, MLB, and the NBA. The Yankees of the '80's just did it more often than most. Frankly, I can't really say that it had a huge payoff for them, in terms of producing postseason appearances.

I just want us to get the best guy, period, both in terms of preparing his players and having a feel for in-game managing.

[RShack]

Shack spare us.

The guy asked my opinion, and I provided it. If you don't like it, tough. Forgive me for not being a sheep and agreeing with the horde who suddenly decided DT should be fired because Frobby thinks so.

RShack, I respect your opinion, but do you seriously think everyone wants DT fired because Frobby said so? There have been A LOT of people calling for his firing since the home opener.

No, there have not been a lot of people calling for it since the home opener. There have been a few, and most of them never liked DT. The magic moment when A LOT of people started calling for it was when Frobby did. That's a fact, Jack...

[SilentJames]

Fellas, we are going to agree to disagree. You guys are not going to see my point of view. Oh well...........

Would you spend money to replace the brakes on a car that doesn't have a working engine?

Then why would you burn your best pitcher and your chances of winning a game that night to stop a team from getting five more runs?

I mean you understand that it would not have mattered if the Rangers had scored 300 runs right, it was still just one loss.

[24fps]

If you want to treat it as a joke that's one thing but why would you have lost faith in the manager for bringing the ace in? Is it really that far fetched? It is obvious to me that you and others don't regard a 30-3 loss as anything special. I submit that it further enhances the poor image this franchise has in baseball.

IMO the decision to write off that game is probably best understood within the context of triage. That casualty wasn't going to survive no matter what, so no reason to waste precious resources.

That being said, a lot of us are sympathetic to your underlying point that pride matters.

[Tranquil1]

First, I guess its kind of piling on, but yeah, that would be the worst thing I have ever heard. Why jeopardize future games for one that is hopeless? Not sure you have ever played before or not, but sometimes its just not your night. Usually, 30 runs isn't on the table but EVERYONE takes a drubbing.

Second, I think your main point might have been lost by the ridiculous suggestion above. While, I have enjoyed reading this thread and am glad it was started, I do think if you or I, or JTrea had started it, we would have been lambasted. Us for different reasons than JTrea, but the inevitable "couldn't this have gone in one of the hundred other Trembley threads" would have come out. Granted, your statement about the 30-3 game didn't do you any favors as far as getting people to value your opinion.

If you are going to start threads you just have to expect it.

That is easily done on this site. I feel like I'm bleeding and I'm in the water with a bunch of sharks, but it's Ok.

Yes, I've played, and I'd be damned if I would have participated in a joke of a game like that.

[Hank Scorpio]

The guy asked my opinion, and I provided it. If you don't like it, tough. Forgive me for not being a sheep and agreeing with the horde who suddenly decided DT should be fired because Frobby thinks so.


No, there have not been a lot of people calling for it since the home opener. There have been a few, and most of them never liked DT. The magic moment when A LOT of people started calling for it was when Frobby did. That's a fact, Jack...

I think a lot of people saw DT's reaction or lackthereof to some BS last night, heard both commentators sorta call him out on it, agreed with them and then realized that perhaps Trembley has changed since he tookover.

I think this stems more from Thorne & Palmer's reaction than it does from Frobby's.

[SilentJames]

The guy asked my opinion, and I provided it. If you don't like it, tough. Forgive me for not being a sheep and agreeing with the horde who suddenly decided DT should be fired because Frobby thinks so.


No, there have not been a lot of people calling for it since the home opener. There have been a few, and most of them never liked DT. The magic moment when A LOT of people started calling for it was when Frobby did. That's a fact, Jack...

No, the fact was that the Orioles lost another very winnable game and nothing was done to Lugo who was CLEARLY dogging it up the line. And I mean clearly.

what Lugo did was entirely unacceptable. There is "not running full speed" (which every player in the universe does) and then there was what Lugo did. That deserved immediate action and Dave should have done it.

Mazzilli got canned when he stopped showing up to team meetings that HE called. Now, I love DT - but Lugo better not be in the lineup tonight.

[ChaosLex]

No, there have not been a lot of people calling for it since the home opener. There have been a few, and most of them never liked DT. The magic moment when A LOT of people started calling for it was when Frobby did. That's a fact, Jack...

So, just to clarify, I started a poll this morning asking whether or not DT should be relieved of command. At last count, the vote was 109-6 that he should. You think a majority of those people sprung up because of Frobby's thread?

If so, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Hooded Viper]

First, I guess its kind of piling on, but yeah, that would be the worst thing I have ever heard. Why jeopardize future games for one that is hopeless? Not sure you have ever played before or not, but sometimes its just not your night. Usually, 30 runs isn't on the table but EVERYONE takes a drubbing.

Second, I think your main point might have been lost by the ridiculous suggestion above. While, I have enjoyed reading this thread and am glad it was started, I do think if you or I, or JTrea had started it, we would have been lambasted. Us for different reasons than JTrea, but the inevitable "couldn't this have gone in one of the hundred other Trembley threads" would have come out. Granted, your statement about the 30-3 game didn't do you any favors as far as getting people to value your opinion.

If you are going to start threads you just have to expect it.

Oh good god, are you really going to cry about not getting the same respect as one of the most repected posters on the site? Frobby is the OH's version of Methuselah and given his longevity and his ridiculous amount of insightful threads is granted the "street cred" he deserves. You have to earn respect and if anyone starts a thread that is well thought out, laid out and factual then you will quickly gain credibility. The difference between this board and many others, especially the Sun, is they do not allow a ton of trolls to come in here and post moronic crap! Good lord.

[Frobby]

My opinion is...[list][*] This thread is a about 98% a Frobby bandwagon. Very few were talking like this until Frobby started the thread, and most of that few were doing it for the last year. But Frobby starts a thread about firing DT and all-the-sudden people are talking about DT like he's a dead man....

ps: Frobby has every right to want DT's head on a plate. That's not what bothers me. It's the sudden mob of copycats that bothers me.

I've never tried to set myself up as someone whose opinion should matter any more than anyone else's on the board, and frankly, I don't think there are many posters here who will agree with an opinion just becuase it comes from me. I just want to clarify one thing -- I didn't have a sudden epiphany. It's more like last night was the straw that broke the camel's back. I was on the fence last year as to whether DT should be invited back, and said I would go along with whatever MacPhail decided because I trusted his judgment. But I don't like what I'm seeing on the field. I don't mean just the losing, it's the very passive approach the Orioles are taking to the game. And that starts with Trembley. I just don't sense the same fire and resolve from him that shined through so clearly in prior years.

[RShack]

I think a lot of people saw DT's reaction or lackthereof to some BS last night, heard both commentators sorta call him out on it, agreed with them and then realized that perhaps Trembley has changed since he tookover.

I think this stems more from Thorne & Palmer's reaction than it does from Frobby's.

Yeah, well, funny that it didn't happen in response to the announcers saying it, it happened in response to Frobby saying it. Maybe you think that's just a coincidence, but I don't...

[Hank Scorpio]

Yeah, well, funny that it didn't happen in response to the announcers saying it, it happened in response to Frobby saying it. Maybe you think that's just a coincidence, but I don't...

I don't think we're going to open up any holes in the universe here, so it's not a big deal... but I'm just saying that someone who typically would never say anything negative about the manager did so during the game, right after the play. Then we saw Trembley dismiss the question in the postgame.

Those are bad signs.

[Tranquil1]

Would you spend money to replace the brakes on a car that doesn't have a working engine?

Then why would you burn your best pitcher and your chances of winning a game that night to stop a team from getting five more runs?

I mean you understand that it would not have mattered if the Rangers had scored 300 runs right, it was still just one loss.

James, with all due respect, I'm not making myself clear. That kind of loss represents more than just one game. It adds stink to an already smelly franchise. Who wants to be a part of that? I submit that is why we have problems attracting the top flight free agents. Nice picture in your post. I've seen it dozens of times.... (NOT directed at me, though)

[Old#5fan]

No, the fact was that the Orioles lost another very winnable game and nothing was done to Lugo who was CLEARLY dogging it up the line. And I mean clearly.

what Lugo did was entirely unacceptable. There is "not running full speed" (which every player in the universe does) and then there was what Lugo did. That deserved immediate action and Dave should have done it.

Mazzilli got canned when he stopped showing up to team meetings that HE called. Now, I love DT - but Lugo better not be in the lineup tonight.

Why do so many people post the "love" Dave Trembley? He seems like a great guy but the facts show that he is far from a great manager. In fact, an argument could be made that he's a terrible major league manager. So I would rather have a winning manager that nobody "loves" than this guy. Sorry, just had to say it. He's not a winner.