I'm slow to judge, but Trembley officially lost me tonight

[ccbird]

Explain baseball to me? Excuse me? Conceited much?

As opinionated as I am, I'm the first to admit that my opinion could be wrong and that other people could be right. Clearly you don't have that particular quality.

But when someone who can't even use the word "Your" correctly in a sentence tells me they need to explain baseball to me (and the hundreds, nay thousands of other people who believe Trembley is not a good manager) it sort of undermines their credibility in my book.

Seriously, unless you're secretly a hall of fame baseball executive who gets kicks trolling OH and masquerading as an ill informed megalomaniac, I seriously doubt from your posts you have anything to teach people on OH about baseball.

No problem. I'd definitely considered multiple personality disorder as a possibility for this person. :P

Clearly, everybody who is an O's fan is not in a good mood right now. I do disagree with your opinion of DT as a manager but I really don't feel like defending him anymore. I think it'd be a moot point and I'm ready for a change. So instead, being frustrated and lazy I went the "explain baseball to DT basher route" which obviously wasn't the right way to go.

[TinCup]

I agree with RShackelford, as usual. Even if that puts me in a tiny minority re whether to fire Trembley. As for the Lugo incident, it has been pointed out and conveniently forgotten that he hustled in his next AB--probably someone did lecture him. Making such a big deal out of it is crazy. Also, if people are jumping on a bandwagon, I don't think it's FRobby's (with all due respect, he's just a frequent poster to the OH--why wd so many people fall in line behind him?) so much as Palmer's. Palmer embodies so much of what the OH fondly remembers and wishes to see restored. If Brooks or Cal were to rag on Lugo and the team's listlessness, there'd be even more of a storm.

Come on, you're just saying all of this because Shack is your Pied Piper...

[ccbird]

Yeah, Shack's theory is truly a Trea-ean leap into correlation/causation confusion. Doesn't mean he's wrong, of course.

Like I said, I made the same point in another thread before I saw Frobby's thread. When Frobby starts a thread people open it. I'll admit that I reposted what I said in the other thread to get my thoughts out there. However, I'm very offended by the notion of not being able to think for myself or needing Frobby to start a thread for me to jump on the bandwagon.

[Mike B]

I have been one of DT's supporters throughout the last year and a half, and unlike some, I do not think he is a bad game manager but after watching the last group of games, and players reactions, I think it has become time to try someone else. I think DT becomes the latest of good baseball men who meet their demise in what has become a manager waste land. DT, Perlozzo, Mazzilli, Hargrove, Miller etc. are all good baseball people who IMO all have similar personalities. We need someone who thinks outside the box in regards to lightening the fire under people. Joe Maddon of the Rays, jumped on BJ Upton last year removing him from games, when he felt the effort was not there. That is what I want. There have been a number of names mentioned.
Jim Palmer.....IMO he would laugh at the offer.
Cal Ripken.....never managed, and the downside of failure would be overwhelming in a PR aspect.
Chris Hoiles.......please get serious.
Bob Melvin...similar personality to the recent managers
Rick Dempsey......no way
Gary Allenson....AS an interim maybe, but is this DT phase 2?
Two choices.... for me.
Tom Kelly........AM would have to do a hell of a sales pitch
or
Bobby Valentine...... he might be a guy to put boot to butt.

Thanks DT for your efforts. A class act, and stand up guy but this can not continue. Too early in the season to ride to ride out the storm.

[Pedro Cerrano]

My opinion is...

• This thread is a about 98% a Frobby bandwagon. Very few were talking like this until Frobby started the thread, and most of that few were doing it for the last year. But Frobby starts a thread about firing DT and all-the-sudden people are talking about DT like he's a dead man.
  .
• Go back and read the OP. What pushed Frobby over the edge was DT's lack of action in the face of Julio Lugo (of all people) running out a GB out. Then, go read Frobby's follow up and the presser. Somebody asked DT about that very thing, and Frobby is appalled that DT didn't know what the questioner was referring to. Personally, I wouldn't care if Lugo disappeared from the face of the Earth and was never heard from again. But I don't think that DT's awareness of, and reaction to, something that Julio Friggin Lugo did or didn't do is compelling proof of anything. Why was DT inattentive about Lugo? Beats me. Maybe he was thinking about something else. Maybe he was numb. No way for me to know. But the idea that this incident constitutes a basis for flipping one's opinion about DT is IMO ludicrous. (Note: I am not saying that the Lugo thing is the reason Frobby is unhappy. But I am saying that, for Frobby, it is clearly the straw the broke the camel's back.)
  .
• Since Frobby flipped, both he and lots of other folks are talking as if DT is fine with losing, the team has given up, yada-yada. It is BS to say that DT is fine with losing. It is BS that the team has given up. The pitching staff is doing fine, the players care and are trying, and nobody is hitting. Yes, the team appears flat, but it's absurd to talk as if the team being flat in the midst of a crappy streak is somehow remarkable. To the contrary, a team being flat in the midst of a crappy street is pretty normal. I'm not recommending it, but I am saying it's ridiculous to talk is if there is something strange or unusual about a team being flat in the middle of a crappy streak. This is true regardless of whether Frobby has lost his mind or not.
  .
• As Frobby correctly pointed out shortly before his very abrupt fire-DT epiphany, DT is playing with half a team. Both guys with closer experience are out. The guy who was our best SP last year just got sent to Norfolk. Our 2B-man and lead-off hitter is out. Our 3B-man is out. One LF-er is out and the other one is not running right. DT is left with two-thirds of a lineup, it's like having 18 outs instead of 27. Of the other guys, most are slumping. They're not giving up, they're slumping and they're not happy about it. People who claim they're not trying to get hits, and are fine with losing, are just full of crap... and, yes, that includes Frobby if that's what he thinks.
  .
• What the team needs is to have some hits fall in for a couple games in a row. Once the slump stops, that will fix lots of other things. The mass opinion that's popped up here is that the way you fix things is to hold guys accountable and punish them. Anybody who thinks that's how you fix a slump is just plain ignorant. As I said elsewhere, I wish I could find the quote from Chipper Jones talking about what happens to you when you're in a slump. The idea that you fix that by punishing somebody is just a stupid idea.
  .
• Firing DT will not fix what's going on. Firing DT will not stop a hitting slump. Firing DT will not bring guys off the DL.
  -
• DT may or may not get fired. It is completely normal for managers to get fired for things that are not their fault. However, it is not completely normal for managers to get fired because Frobby says so. What is happening on this board right now is a me-too bandwagon about firing DT that *is* caused by Frobby saying so. I respect Frobby, but I don't think he deserves that kind of influence.

Now, I realize all of that does not fit on a bumpersticker, so some folks here won't like it, simply because reading is oh-so-much-work. But that's what I think is going on. Now, do I think DT should be fired now? No, I do not. I think he should have more than 3 weeks of a season when half the guys who matter are hurt. If the hitting doesn't come around fairly soon, DT may well be the one who pays the price. But doing it because Frobby lost it over a DT's response to the Lugo thing, and now suddenly wants DT's head on a plate, is absurd... and that's exactly what's happening here...

ps: Frobby has every right to want DT's head on a plate. That's not what bothers me. It's the sudden mob of copycats that bothers me.

Sounds like someone's jealous to me.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Okay, so you've identified a correlation, and based on nothing other than your (less than generous) estimation of the wits and reason of this board, decided that people are following Frobby's call to arms.

That's fine. As long as you recognize the serious limitations of your opinion.

Now, as alternatives, there are plenty of options:

(i) that there's a threshold of tolerance for ineptitude that finally got passed. Perhaps tolerance charts like a Bell curve, which means there are concentrations at points where tolerance ends. Temporal coincidence of independent reactions.

(ii) that the announcers had an influence;

(iii) that folks recognize their own irrationality and, though silent before about their frustrations, figured that Frobby's agreement vetted their feelings re: DT. I.e., Frobby is a proxy for reason. In this instance, it's not people glomming onto Frobby's perspective, but rather Frobby's late-arrival at agreement validating their already-arrived at conclusions.

Any of these are equally valid. So, what we have here is really more of a Rorschach test for posters' feelings about the ability of board members to decide for themselves these issues. I think we know where you stand.

I love this post, and I think the bolded part is especially true.

I only love the post because YOU wrote it, LuckyJim.

[Pedro Cerrano]

This whole issue is hilarious to me. There have been countless threads and/or posts about DT and his job security.

It's not like Frobby propositioned the idea of firing DT and suddenly 99% of the board decides they want to see DT fired.

That's just insane.

[TGO]

This whole issue is hilarious to me. There have been countless threads and/or posts about DT and his job security.

It's not like Frobby propositioned the idea of firing DT and suddenly 99% of the board decides they want to see DT fired.

That's just insane.

Now now, sheep don't have the ability to process what is or is not insane. Watch Babe or read Animal Farm.

Actually, don't. You can't. You don't have thumbs.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Now now, sheep don't have the ability to process what is or is not insane. Watch Babe or read Animal Farm.

Actually, don't. You can't. You don't have thumbs.

I have a kindle, biatch!

[RShack]

I love this post, and I think the bolded part is especially true.

You *like* it that he's saying people are so insecure in their own opinion that they're too cowardly to express their opinion unless Frobby comes out and gives them validity? Man, even I never said anything like that. I never even thought it either. It sounds like, um, what's that phrase? Oh, wait, I know: It sounds like dissing the whole board to me, calling people chicken, saying they need Frobby to give them the courage they don't otherwise have. Jeez...

[olehippi]

People over-reacting on OH?.....Never! Impossible! Unbelievable!

[Ohfan67]

Rshack -- Are you indirectly saying that overall play of the team is acceptable, but that there's just a hitting and pitching slump right now? That's what it sounds like to me.

Do you honestly not have problems with the baserunning, situational hitting, defense, etc. that happened last year and have continued this year? Or do you think that there are no problems.

I am curious, really, to know what you think about these things. You are very, very quick to defend DT and have been consistently defending the upper management of the Orioles for years. Are the problems of today all the result of Sid Thrift and the bad ole days? I really would like to better understand your point of view.

[Pedro Cerrano]

You *like* it that he's saying people are so insecure in their own opinion that they're too cowardly to express their opinion unless Frobby comes out and gives them validity? Man, even I never said anything like that. I never even thought it either. It sounds like, um, what's that phrase? Oh, wait, I know: It sounds like dissing the whole board to me, calling people chicken, saying they need Frobby to give them the courage they don't otherwise have. Jeez...

You're ignoring the fact that the bolded part completely contradicts your initial silly assessment - par for the course, RTrea.

Also I don't necessarily think that this means I'm "dissing the board" or "calling people chicken."

There are countless reasons why someone might withhold their thoughts before a thread like this none of which involve being "chicken" to post on an anonymous message board.

My, what a silly supposition.

[Pedro Cerrano]

BTW Shack, I hope you don't think I'm jumping on you just because everyone else is. I only discovered what was going on here a little bit ago.

I swear.

[RShack]

Rshack -- Are you indirectly saying that overall play of the team is acceptable, but that there's just a hitting and pitching slump right now? That's what it sounds like to me.

Do you honestly not have problems with the baserunning, situational hitting, defense, etc. that happened last year and have continued this year? Or do you think that there are no problems.

I am curious, really, to know what you think about these things. You are very, very quick to defend DT and have been consistently defending the upper management of the Orioles for years. Are the problems of today all the result of Sid Thrift and the bad ole days? I really would like to better understand your point of view.

I think some things suck now, but not everything. I think the pitching is actually doing great, when you consider the fact that last year's best SP just got shipped to Norfolk and that both guys who have closer experience are out. The problem is the position players. They're not holding up their part, they know it, they're pressing, and they're doing stupid stuff. That's what slumps do. I think that a few games of hits falling in will fix a whole lot of what's wrong. It won't fix the DL problems, but it will fix a lot. Meanwhile, I don't think changing managers will either cure injuries or end slumps. Other people seem to think it will, I have no idea why they think that, but they do. I don't.