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Long toss controversy

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I've always been a fan of long toss. Know who else does long toss from around 300 ft? King Felix.

Also think it's silly of teams to try and force one structured routine on all of it's pitchers.

I'm guessing Bobby probably follows a similar routine and the O's are OK with it.

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http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=As19Zw1PSFJIJv7p1nVjBBsRvLYF?slug=jp-passan_baseball_draft_bundy_bauer_long_toss_debate_051911

Prep right-hander Dylan Bundy, perhaps the top talent in one of the most loaded Major League Baseball drafts in years, has informed several teams not to select him because of fears they’ll try to change his throwing program, a source close to Bundy told Yahoo! Sports.

And he’s not the only one.

UCLA starter Trevor Bauer, also a potential top-5 pick, shares Bundy’s concern about teams’ reticence to allow long-toss sessions in which pitchers throw the ball on an arc up to 300 feet in order to build up arm strength, according to another source. About half the teams in baseball stick with a strict program that limits pitchers to straight-line throws at 120 feet, which Bauer and Bundy fear would affect their arm strength.

Bundy told the Pittsburgh Pirates, who own the No. 1 pick, and the Kansas City Royals, who pick fifth, that he’d prefer they not use their pick on him, according to the source. Seattle (picking second), Arizona (third and seventh) and Washington (sixth) all advocate long toss. Bundy’s older brother Bobby plays for Baltimore, which chooses fourth.

The Owasso, Okla., native surged to the head of the high school class this year thanks to a fastball that reached 100 mph this season, a beyond-his-years cutter and the sort of mature approach scouts believe can land him in the major leagues by 2013. Bundy’s ascent toward the end of the spring sent him to the top of at least one American League team’s draft board, according to a scouting director, and Baseball Prospectus’ Kevin Goldstein called him the top talent available.

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Just finished reading an article in JOSPT (Journal of Orthopedic Sports Physical Therapy) by Dr. James Andrews and Kevin Wilk, his head therapist . In summary it warned STRONGLY against maximum distance long toss. The article favorable viewed rehabilitation with a long toss around 120 feet with a maximum of 180 feet. The maximal long toss program that you favor for King Felix puts undo stress on the elbow and shoulder and changes the mechanics of the throw. You are unable to throw a straight horizontal ball that long thus changing the arc of the throw and the mechanics on the shoulder and elbow. It was an interesting article and from the current "expert" in sports medicine. Also in response to the article about the mechanics of Lincecum, I have yet to meet a person in sports medicine who doesn't think he is close to blowing out his arm with his delivery. Hopefully we are all wrong, but I understand why 10 teams passed on him in the draft, including the Orioles. Hard to invest millions of dollars in an pitcher who your medical staff doesn't feel his mechanics will allow him to pitch healthy for years to come.

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Just finished reading an article in JOSPT (Journal of Orthopedic Sports Physical Therapy) by Dr. James Andrews and Kevin Wilk, his head therapist . In summary it warned STRONGLY against maximum distance long toss. The article favorable viewed rehabilitation with a long toss around 120 feet with a maximum of 180 feet. The maximal long toss program that you favor for King Felix puts undo stress on the elbow and shoulder and changes the mechanics of the throw. You are unable to throw a straight horizontal ball that long thus changing the arc of the throw and the mechanics on the shoulder and elbow. It was an interesting article and from the current "expert" in sports medicine. Also in response to the article about the mechanics of Lincecum, I have yet to meet a person in sports medicine who doesn't think he is close to blowing out his arm with his delivery. Hopefully we are all wrong, but I understand why 10 teams passed on him in the draft, including the Orioles. Hard to invest millions of dollars in an pitcher who your medical staff doesn't feel his mechanics will allow him to pitch healthy for years to come.

I've heard of this article, isn't that in response to recovering from shoulder surgery though? I got the impression that was at the root of this problem, teams are using this article and applying it to healthy players as well attempting to mitigate risk of injury, but the players are getting upset that there is no study that shows long tossing to be detrimental to a healthy arm.

I was interested to see what your opinion was going to be on this one. If you had to give an opinion off the top of your head, dealing with healthy players would you go completely against long toss?

It was something I grew up with through HS and later, but I tried to keep it shorter than 300ft, I think I maxed out around 200-230 cause that was what was comfortable for me.

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Actually sports guy I mentioned it here first:

I just didn't think it was separate thread worthy since the O's were not directly involved.

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You are absolutely correct that the study was done to talk about the rehabbing athlete. However the study was done on healthy college pitchers. The data that was collected and analyzed was then transposed over to the rehabbing of an injured pitcher. The study limits included that the athletes that were looked at were only of college age, healthy, and only pitchers(no position players). There is some question and danger to take this information and add it cart blanche to all pitchers and throwers of all ages and levels (high school, non-mature throwing athlete, and professional players). But what was of interest to me was that the authors seem to feel that there was no gain to MPH for training at 180feet vs. maximum distance. So the idea was why take the risk with a healthy or injured person by changing the mechanics to do a maximum throw if no benefit in speed will be obtained. Plus if you want to train an athlete it is often beneficial to train in a manner that would mimic actual situations. A maximal throw by definition is not possible on a horizontal plain. Whereas pitching is all done on a horizontal plain in therory (obviously curves, sliders, etc excluded). In my opinion I would refrain from training as a pitcher at a distance much beyond 180 feet. If you are an outfielder and want to utilize an arc on the throws than I could see the benefits of training with maximal distance throwing. One has to always keep in mind the individal athlete, build, endurance, etc. I often see athletes trying to go beyond their physical limits and putting at risk other parts of their body for what would amount to little or no difference in actual play performance. Hope that helps. And by no means am I an expert, but if anybody has any questions about particular articles, forward them to me and I can try to point out the key points in layman's terms.

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I often see athletes trying to go beyond their physical limits and putting at risk other parts of their body for what would amount to little or no difference in actual play performance.

This is what it comes down to, to me. Maybe a guy with arms and physical attributes like core and leg strength like hercules (e.g., top velocity pitchers) are capable of using long long toss, and maybe that long long toss helps them maintain1-2 mph and certain muscle groups slightly better.

That doesn't mean I want them all doing it though.

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Interesting to straight away tell the Royals and Pirates to not consider drafting him. As I read that article though, I really like his make-up and would be happy if we drafted him.

Highly doubt he said this in any definitive way. Mayo is already contradicting it:

http://minors.mlblogs.com/2011/05/20/draft-dylan-bundy-and-his-throwing-program/

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