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Ray Rice

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I don't want to get hung up on semantics....how's this, Ray Rice is one of the best offensive players in the league and arguably the best SKILL player in the league.

If he was a between the tackles, pound it out type of back, I'd be more with you but Rice is so much more than just a running back. I think you're really devaluing what Rice means to this offense.

Yes he is...He can catch and run...He is dangerous in open space.

Just like Charles, Jackson, MJD, Forte, Gore and McCoy...all of them are duel threat backs and all of them were drafted in the second round or lower.

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Yes he is...He can catch and run...He is dangerous in open space.

Just like Charles, Jackson, MJD, Forte, Gore and McCoy...all of them are duel threat backs and all of them were drafted in the second round or lower.

And just about all of them are featured in offenses in the NFL that aren't elite.

So back to your original point, I'm only spending that type of money on an elite QB who can take our offense to the next level. We're still a mediocre defense even with Rice's greatness. I'm sure I'll get blasted for taking this stance.

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Yes he is...He can catch and run...He is dangerous in open space.

Just like Charles, Jackson, MJD, Forte, Gore and McCoy...all of them are duel threat backs and all of them were drafted in the second round or lower.

Add Ray Rice to that group and you have 7 players, or one for less than 25% of NFL teams. Not as rare as an elite QB, but not the sort of player you can pick up in any draft either.

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Add Ray Rice to that group and you have 7 players' date=' or one for less than 25% of NFL teams. Not as rare as an elite QB, but not the sort of player you can pick up in any draft either.[/quote']No but that is just a quick list of guys NOT drafted in the first round.

You can also have the players like CJ, Peterson, DeAngelo, etc....

My point is that you can get very good play makers out of the RB position almost at will.

Daniel Thomas looks like he will be a good RB. The Browns may go to Montario Hardesty and he has very good upside.

Ben Tate is very good.

BTW, I forgot to put Arian Foster in the post you quoted, so that makes 8(with Rice) out of 32 teams.

Ray Rice is a beast and I am glad we have him...but there is a salary cap in football and the Ravens have a lot of pieces they need to keep and add.

When they drafted Rice, a lot of people questioned whether he could be a big time weapon in this league...The Ravens can draft, we all know that.

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Second, signing bonuses (and some other types included in that umbrella) count against the cap evenly over the full term of the contract. So if you give him, say, $42 million guaranteed in those bonuses over seven years, it counts as at least $6 million every one of those seven years, active or cut.

Absolutely, 100% completely FALSE.

You obviously know nothing about NFL contracts, so just quit talking now before you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already do for claiming such nonsense. I know you have been told that many times here before but maybe one of these days you will listen.

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Absolutely, 100% completely FALSE.

You obviously know nothing about NFL contracts, so just quit talking now before you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already do for claiming such nonsense. I know you have been told that many times here before but maybe one of these days you will listen.

Why the harsh response? We understand what he's getting at.

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Absolutely, 100% completely FALSE.

You obviously know nothing about NFL contracts, so just quit talking now before you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already do for claiming such nonsense. I know you have been told that many times here before but maybe one of these days you will listen.

Well, that's how I was under the impression that they worked. If it is wrong, that's fine. And if someone else is willing to explain it better then you just did, I would appreciate it greatly.

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Well, that's how I was under the impression that they worked. If it is wrong, that's fine. And if someone else is willing to explain it better then you just did, I would appreciate it greatly.

Teams can allocate the signing bonus portion any way they want over the life of the contract, but it can't increase more than 30% from one year to the next.

Example: if they put $10 million of it in 2011, in 2012 it can't be more than $13 million. 2013 it couldn't be more than 16.9...and so on.

Most teams will structure contracts like I laid out before, so that near the end of the deal they can cut bait without any real cap implications. It is how you hear "we can cut player X and save _______ against the cap."

If they are in the final year(s) of the deal they almost all the time have paid out the entire signing bonus or have a tiny bit left, so whatever the salary is at that point it comes clean off the books against the cap.

McGahee's deal was a perfect example, it was a "7 year deal" but in reality all the signing bonus money was paid out in 4 years and after that the Ravens just cut him and saved all of the $6 million (or so) in base salary they had for him on their cap for the remaining years. He had no signing bonus allocated so there was no "cap hit".

I hope that clears things up.

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Teams can allocate the signing bonus portion any way they want over the life of the contract, but it can't increase more than 30% from one year to the next.

Example: if they put $10 million of it in 2011, in 2012 it can't be more than $13 million. 2013 it couldn't be more than 16.9...and so on.

Most teams will structure contracts like I laid out before, so that near the end of the deal they can cut bait without any real cap implications. It is how you hear "we can cut player X and save _______ against the cap."

If they are in the final year(s) of the deal they almost all the time have paid out the entire signing bonus or have a tiny bit left, so whatever the salary is at that point it comes clean off the books against the cap.

McGahee's deal was a perfect example, it was a "7 year deal" but in reality all the signing bonus money was paid out in 4 years and after that the Ravens just cut him and saved all of the $6 million (or so) in base salary they had for him on their cap for the remaining years. He had no signing bonus allocated so there was no "cap hit".

I hope that clears things up.

That's interesting. I know I have seen it explained elsewhere that the "hit" from guaranteed money is spread over the entire term of the contract.

Thanks.

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Teams can allocate the signing bonus portion any way they want over the life of the contract, but it can't increase more than 30% from one year to the next.

Example: if they put $10 million of it in 2011, in 2012 it can't be more than $13 million. 2013 it couldn't be more than 16.9...and so on.

Most teams will structure contracts like I laid out before, so that near the end of the deal they can cut bait without any real cap implications. It is how you hear "we can cut player X and save _______ against the cap."

If they are in the final year(s) of the deal they almost all the time have paid out the entire signing bonus or have a tiny bit left, so whatever the salary is at that point it comes clean off the books against the cap.

McGahee's deal was a perfect example, it was a "7 year deal" but in reality all the signing bonus money was paid out in 4 years and after that the Ravens just cut him and saved all of the $6 million (or so) in base salary they had for him on their cap for the remaining years. He had no signing bonus allocated so there was no "cap hit".

I hope that clears things up.

That's interesting. I know I have seen it explained elsewhere that the "hit" from guaranteed money is spread over the entire term of the contract.

Thanks.

Yes, I appreciate the detailed explanation. This is something I know I need to learn a lot more about.

So a question for clarity - Had they allocated some of Willis's signing bonus in year 5, that allocated signing bonus $$ would have counted against the cap - while the base salary for this season we would be able to save from the cap? So as an example, say they had $4MM of his signing bonus allocated this year, his base this year was $6MM, so if we cut him, and this was the scenario, we would have only saved net $2MM from the cap?

BTW, is there a COTS type web-site that keeps track of and breaks down salaries (and how they're structured) for NFL teams?

Edited by The Rick

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Teams can allocate the signing bonus portion any way they want over the life of the contract, but it can't increase more than 30% from one year to the next.

Example: if they put $10 million of it in 2011, in 2012 it can't be more than $13 million. 2013 it couldn't be more than 16.9...and so on.

Most teams will structure contracts like I laid out before, so that near the end of the deal they can cut bait without any real cap implications. It is how you hear "we can cut player X and save _______ against the cap."

If they are in the final year(s) of the deal they almost all the time have paid out the entire signing bonus or have a tiny bit left, so whatever the salary is at that point it comes clean off the books against the cap.

McGahee's deal was a perfect example, it was a "7 year deal" but in reality all the signing bonus money was paid out in 4 years and after that the Ravens just cut him and saved all of the $6 million (or so) in base salary they had for him on their cap for the remaining years. He had no signing bonus allocated so there was no "cap hit".

I hope that clears things up.

And this would be incorrect. Signing bonus money is excluded from the 30% rule. One quick example is Terrell Suggs who received 10M in his first year and 23 million in year 2. The signing bonus only applies to player salary for any year in a capped year. For your reference, it's page 107 sec.7 of the new CBA.

Guaranteed money is allocated over the life of the contract. That includes all signing bonus money, roster bonus money and team's options. Again, the 30% rule does not apply here.

There was a 2.5MM cap hit when the team cut McGahee in 2011 and there will be another 3.5MM cap hit in 2012. Despite the salary savings, we still had to account for his prorated guarantees over the seven years.

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Yes, I appreciate the detailed explanation. This is something I know I need to learn a lot more about.

So a question for clarity - Had they allocated some of Willis's signing bonus in year 5, that allocated signing bonus $$ would have counted against the cap - while the base salary for this season we would be able to save from the cap? So as an example, say they had $4MM of his signing bonus allocated this year, his base this year was $6MM, so if we cut him, and this was the scenario, we would have only saved net $2MM from the cap?

BTW, is there a COTS type web-site that keeps track of and breaks down salaries (and how they're structured) for NFL teams?

Let's use round numbers here.

Let's say you are going to agree to a 5 year 20MM dollar deal with the Ravens. As part of that 20MM deal, the Ravens agree to guarantee 10MM of that money. Now, it doesn't matter at all when or how you receive that 10MM. The Ravens can stroke a check for 10MM on day 1 of your contract, on day one of the league year or perhaps in year 3 once you've played out your last contract.....it doesnt matter so forget about it.

So over that 5 years, we are also going to pay you another 10MM in salary. We might structure that as 1MM in year 1, 2MM in year 2, 2MM in year 3, 2MM in year 4 and 3MM in year 5.

To account for your contract for salary cap purposes, we'll first allocate 2MM in each year to account for your 10MM in guaranteed money. We are just spreading it out over the life of the contract so our base salary cap number in each year is 2MM before we get to salary. This is our cap hit in each give year at this point.

In using our salary example above, just add the salary figure from each year to the 2MM in any given year to get that year's cap number. This is the amount that will count against the cap. For example, in year 3 our cap number is 4MM.

At a minimum, the Ravens will have to account for that 10MM in guaranteed money. So let's say the Ravens decide to part ways with you in year 3 at the end of the season. Once that happens, we'll still have to account for the final two years in guaranteed money totaling 4MM.

So we'll have a 4MM dollar cap hit but well save 5MM from our cap because we eliminated your salary in years 4 and 5. Salary is not guaranteed and it's an immediate savings to the cap.

Just to be clear about something, your cap number and cap hit are two different things. Your cap hit is simply the affect of cutting a player and taking the "hit" against the cap like we did in our example of 4MM. Sometimes you'll hear the term "dead money" which is simply the guaranteed amount to be accounted for against the cap. It's often called dead money because you might have already been paid your 10MM.

Cap number is just the salary in any given year plus that year's guaranted amount.

Hope this helps.

Edited by Miller192
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Let's use round numbers here.

Let's say you are going to agree to a 5 year 20MM dollar deal with the Ravens. As part of that 20MM deal, the Ravens agree to guarantee 10MM of that money. Now, it doesn't matter at all when or how you receive that 10MM. The Ravens can stroke a check for 10MM on day 1 of your contract, on day one of the league year or perhaps in year 3 once you've played out your last contract.....it doesnt matter so forget about it.

So over that 5 years, we are also going to pay you another 10MM in salary. We might structure that as 1MM in year 1, 2MM in year 2, 2MM in year 3, 2MM in year 4 and 3MM in year 5.

To account for your contract for salary cap purposes, we'll first allocate 2MM in each year to account for your 10MM in guaranteed money. We are just spreading it out over the life of the contract so our base salary cap number in each year is 2MM before we get to salary. This is our cap hit in each give year at this point.

In using our salary example above, just add the salary figure from each year to the 2MM in any given year to get that year's cap number. This is the amount that will count against the cap. For example, in year 3 our cap number is 4MM.

At a minimum, the Ravens will have to account for that 10MM in guaranteed money. So let's say the Ravens decide to part ways with you in year 3 at the end of the season. Once that happens, we'll still have to account for the final two years in guaranteed money totaling 4MM.

So we'll have a 4MM dollar cap hit but well save 5MM from our cap because we eliminated your salary in years 4 and 5. Salary is not guaranteed and it's an immediate savings to the cap.

Just to be clear about something, your cap number and cap hit are two different things. Your cap hit is simply the affect of cutting a player and taking the "hit" against the cap like we did in our example of 4MM. Sometimes you'll hear the term "dead money" which is simply the guaranteed amount to be accounted for against the cap. It's often called dead money because you might have already been paid your 10MM.

Cap number is just the salary in any given year plus that year's guaranted amount.

Hope this helps.

Yes, this is a great help... thanks so much!

Just a follow up question - In the example above, if we were to part ways in year 3, which would mean a $4MM cap hit, can that hit be $2MM one year, and $2MM the next? Or is all of it in that one season?

Also, is this why you'll see some highly paid, but risky contracts be front loaded with base salary (if their current cap # allows for it), so that 3 or 4 years into a contract they can cut bait without a substantial cap hit?

Thanks again, and please excuse my ignorance. I've got to spread rep around before properly thanking you, just FYI.

Edited by The Rick

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Yes, this is a great help... thanks so much!

Just a follow up question - In the example above, if we were to part ways in year 3, which would mean a $4MM cap hit, can that hit be $2MM one year, and $2MM the next? Or is all of it in that one season?

Also, is this why you'll see some highly paid, but risky contracts be front loaded with base salary (if their current cap # allows for it), so that 3 or 4 years into a contract they can cut bait without a substantial cap hit?

Thanks again, and please excuse my ignorance. I've got to spread rep around before properly thanking you, just FYI.

In reference to your first question, that's where June 1 exemptions kick in. In our example above, the Ravens can cut you after June 1st and take the hit in two years equally. If you are cut before June 1st, then all of the final two years cap hit accelerates and is accounted for in that year.

In reference to your second question, you'll see some contracts that are front loaded while most are going to be back loaded. There are two completely different reasons why a team would do this.

If a team front loads a contract with salary, they are trying to mitigate the risk of an older aging player or perhaps one that might have injury concerns. Packers OL Chad Clifton is a good example here. If they player doesn't perform, they can move on without having any further ramifications down the road. They also can shed that salary immediately or work out an injury settlement if the player is hurt. Again, there's very little in the way of signing bonuses paid on these contracts and its pretty much just salary.

Most teams will back load a contract with salary so that they can rework the deal without affecting the player. You're likely going to see this with Suggs next year. They can guarantee a portion of the salary thus prorating that over the life of the contract. It's a win-win for both player and team because you are guaranteeing the player's salary in case of injury and giving the team the benefit of prorating it among the remaining years of the contract.

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