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Getting attacked and not given the opportunity to respond

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Here's my response to Tony from the SG thread, which I'm guessing will make me go the way of SG and said response may not remain on the site long, but here goes:

You seem to like to attack me for little to no reason. Like the weird jab in the voting thread. I did not say loyalty to this community is silly at all. That's your interpretation that is likely the result of having some sort of issue with me. Others have said the same thing regarding loyalty, yet you haven't jumped on them. Others got way more political in that thread than I, but I didn't see you get on their case. So maybe you should take a step back and look at what I wrote rather than be influenced by your apparent dislike for me. Or not.

As far as taking the other sides in disagreements, well that's true at times, but I am curious what examples you have held onto. I say what I think is right. That's the way it should be imo. I'm sorry I didn't feel the desire to join the bash Stoner party. I don't think that's right and I have a feeling you and Scottie may look back at this thread at some point in the future and think that maybe you shouldn't have taken various personal attacks public. I did say I agreed with you regarding him private messaging a lot of members on here to come over to his board. I totally get that and understand that you guys had some issues. However, I can't support some of the attacks (especially Scottie's) made on a guy that like I said earlier, was a longtime respected and cordial poster on here before putting a lot of work into the site when he worked for you.

I certainly haven't liked some of your posts directed at me including this one, but I do respect you. You served our country admirably, so you automatically have my respect regardless of anything else. In addition, you have founded, developed, and run a site that I have really enjoyed for a long time. I haven't been that active of late and I personally don't enjoy the board as much as I used to, but that's not a reflection on you.

If this is my last post on here, so be it, like you said, I had a good run on your site. I'm sorry that I'm not the type of person to just automatically side with whomever. That's something that some people appreciate and others don't and I get that. But while I don't always support you or the OH on every dispute, I have supported your site financially for quite some time, and I think you sometimes have a funny way of treating a paying customer.

If this is it for me, as I've said, I had a great time on here and I'll miss quite a few posters. Thanks to Tony for creating and running the site and thanks to everyone else who has made this a a significant part of my life for the past 8 plus years.

Edited by mweb
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Somebody in the other thread made mention of "they don't understand the loyalty to a 'message board'." Let me break it down for those who don't understand.

All of us came here as Orioles fans, but a funny thing happened along the way. We met friends. That's right. Many of my friends on here are faceless, but they are friends none-the-less. People have gotten married from meeting on the Hangout. People have had children together who would have otherwise never met. Take a look at the Hangout Club and you'll see threads on people's children, parents, car accidents, deaths of close friends and family. We come here to talk to friends, and along with those friends, we laugh, we cry, we get angry sometimes, but through it all, we come here because its a fun place to "Hangout" with people who have things in common. If that is too hard to understand for some, then so be it, but this place is SO MUCH MORE than an "Orioles message board."

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Somebody in the other thread made mention of "they don't understand the loyalty to a 'message board'." Let me break it down for those who don't understand.

All of us came here as Orioles fans, but a funny thing happened along the way. We met friends. That's right. Many of my friends on here are faceless, but they are friends none-the-less. People have gotten married from meeting on the Hangout. People have had children together who would have otherwise never met. Take a look at the Hangout Club and you'll see threads on people's children, parents, car accidents, deaths of close friends and family. We come here to talk to friends, and along with those friends, we laugh, we cry, we get angry sometimes, but through it all, we come here because its a fun place to "Hangout" with people who have things in common. If that is too hard to understand for some, then so be it, but this place is SO MUCH MORE than an "Orioles message board."

Yes, it is to many, but I haven't met anyone in real life except for someone who barely posted on here. I've also never cried due to the Hangout as much as some would probably hope I did.:D

I get that some are very close to others on here, etc, but for me, I don't see the need the need for loyalty to be come into play that much in terms of where I post. That said, the Hangout will always have a special place in my heart regardless if I keep posting on here or not.

Edited by mweb

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Somebody in the other thread made mention of "they don't understand the loyalty to a 'message board'." Let me break it down for those who don't understand.

All of us came here as Orioles fans, but a funny thing happened along the way. We met friends. That's right. Many of my friends on here are faceless, but they are friends none-the-less. People have gotten married from meeting on the Hangout. People have had children together who would have otherwise never met. Take a look at the Hangout Club and you'll see threads on people's children, parents, car accidents, deaths of close friends and family. We come here to talk to friends, and along with those friends, we laugh, we cry, we get angry sometimes, but through it all, we come here because its a fun place to "Hangout" with people who have things in common. If that is too hard to understand for some, then so be it, but this place is SO MUCH MORE than an "Orioles message board."

I appreciate that sentiment. Personally, I belong to several communities, as do most of us, if we choose to label our social groups that way, and none of them conflict with the others. Sure there are easily dozens of things that have irritated me here over the past several years, and I'm sure the reverse is true in regard to others concerning me. What those things are, I keep to myself, here as well as elsewhere. I respect that people have their opinions of Stoner, good and bad, but I don't know why that became the direction of the other discussion, and to what purpose.

It's times like these that make me (a little too) introspective on my own "contributions," and that doesn't put me in a good place. While that may be a clumsy ending to this post, I'd rather not go much deeper down this rabbit hole.

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I appreciate that sentiment. Personally, I belong to several communities, as do most of us, if we choose to label our social groups that way, and none of them conflict with the others. Sure there are easily dozens of things that have irritated me here over the past several years, and I'm sure the reverse is true in regard to others concerning me. What those things are, I keep to myself, here as well as elsewhere. I respect that people have their opinions of Stoner, good and bad, but I don't know why that became the direction of the other discussion, and to what purpose.

It's times like these that make me (a little too) introspective on my own "contributions," and that doesn't put me in a good place. While that may be a clumsy ending to this post, I'd rather not go much deeper down this rabbit hole.

Yeah I think I know where you are coming from. I belong to a couple different online boards for various interests, all with the same handle, but none have any impact on the others for me. I post here much more than others as it's more active than most of them and it's entertaining (good and bad sometimes), and the way I look at it is this is the ONLY board I do/will pay for, that in a sense is a bit of loyalty if you want to call it that. I will always have a fond place in my heart for this site and all the people here no matter what happens, but I just don't think it's right to label people as "supporting" one guy or another because they choose to have a discussion in both places. I signed up over there months ago before the PMs and before any of the drama, and I purposely didn't partake in any recruiting of people. Out of respect for this place my view was if they find there way over there and post, cool, if they don't, cool. I never even spoke about that board existing over here because I didn't want to be caught in some war over posters, so that's why I was a little offended the way things were worded. It's nothing to do with supporting Tony or supporting Chris, as far as the beef goes I'm far out of it and would like to stay that way.

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Here's my response to Tony from the SG thread, which I'm guessing will make me go the way of SG and said response may not remain on the site long, but here goes:

You seem to like to attack me for little to no reason. Like the weird jab in the voting thread. I did not say loyalty to this community is silly at all. That's your interpretation that is likely the result of having some sort of issue with me. Others have said the same thing regarding loyalty, yet you haven't jumped on them. Others got way more political in that thread than I, but I didn't see you get on their case. So maybe you should take a step back and look at what I wrote rather than be influenced by your apparent dislike for me. Or not.

As far as taking the other sides in disagreements, well that's true at times, but I am curious what examples you have held onto. I say what I think is right. That's the way it should be imo. I'm sorry I didn't feel the desire to join the bash Stoner party. I don't think that's right and I have a feeling you and Scottie may look back at this thread at some point in the future and think that maybe you shouldn't have taken various personal attacks public. I did say I agreed with you regarding him private messaging a lot of members on here to come over to his board. I totally get that and understand that you guys had some issues. However, I can't support some of the attacks (especially Scottie's) made on a guy that like I said earlier, was a longtime respected and cordial poster on here before putting a lot of work into the site when he worked for you.

I certainly haven't liked some of your posts directed at me including this one, but I do respect you. You served our country admirably, so you automatically have my respect regardless of anything else. In addition, you have founded, developed, and run a site that I have really enjoyed for a long time. I haven't been that active of late and I personally don't enjoy the board as much as I used to, but that's not a reflection on you.

If this is my last post on here, so be it, like you said, I had a good run on your site. I'm sorry that I'm not the type of person to just automatically side with whomever. That's something that some people appreciate and others don't and I get that. But while I don't always support you or the OH on every dispute, I have supported your site financially for quite some time, and I think you sometimes have a funny way of treating a paying customer.

If this is it for me, as I've said, I had a great time on here and I'll miss quite a few posters. Thanks to Tony for creating and running the site and thanks to everyone else who has made this a a significant part of my life for the past 8 plus years.

You didn't break any rules, so you would have no reason to be banned. I do appreciate your financial support for the site over the years. We just have a different view on how you should support your "friends" or at least the people who you supposedly respect. Just like in politics, we don't have to always agree, but I have an expectation of longtime members to have some loyalty and to respect this community. I expect that they should feel pretty weird about a guy who used to part of my staff, PMing you through the Hangout's PM system about a competing board. I would not expect that you would then defend him vigorously on my board as if that wasn't running salt in the wound. Obviously you don't feel anything was wrong with how this went down, I disagree. I understand why Scottie was angry, because I know how things went down between the two. Stoner sent me something on facebook that said what he put on his site about this and it had several outright lies in it. Whatever, I'm not going to get in a tit-for-tat thing with him because I don't need to. If people want to be part of a community run by a guy like that with SG as a moderator, more power to them.

I prefer to have people in this community who want to be part of this community and who feel loyal to it because they are part of something special. If some people don't feel that way it's fine, and if they want to post in both, go right ahead, but we'll know who the true Hangouters are and who the people who just post here are.

Eitehr way, I will apologize for asking you to leave. You've been here for 8 years so even though I disagree with your take on this and several other "battles" involving the site, you are welcome to have any opinion you like.

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As far as taking the other sides in disagreements, well that's true at times, but I am curious what examples you have held onto. I say what I think is right. That's the way it should be imo. I'm sorry I didn't feel the desire to join the bash Stoner party. I don't think that's right and I have a feeling you and Scottie may look back at this thread at some point in the future and think that maybe you shouldn't have taken various personal attacks public. I did say I agreed with you regarding him private messaging a lot of members on here to come over to his board. I totally get that and understand that you guys had some issues. However, I can't support some of the attacks (especially Scottie's) made on a guy that like I said earlier, was a longtime respected and cordial poster on here before putting a lot of work into the site when he worked for you.

I don't have any regrets about what I posted. He can say he felt terrible about shilling for his message board through PM's on this one all he wants. The fact is that he did it, it's shady, and I think it's a more transparent indicator of what kind of guy he really is based on my experience with him. That's not to say I'm perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm certainly not above admitting when I'm wrong or when I've been unecessarily offensive. I think my track record here is indicative of that.

So yeah...no regrets on my part.

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Tony,

I have been a reader of this site for close to a dozen years now. For most of that time, I have been an active member. I have been a paying customer since you instituted the Plus membership and I reached the threshold to pay. I actively defended you and this place on other message boards. I was even a contributor for a short time.

You keep talking about loyalty. Well, that goes both ways, and I don't think you are being very loyal to me or to many other long-time members.

People can disagree about particular ideas and still be loyal. The whole idea of the message board is to disagree and discuss. There can even be disagreement about specific aspects of the management and moderation--a cardinal sin if made public, and for absolutely good reason--while still leaving plenty of room for loyalty.

That's why when I see you attack people in ways that you would never, ever accept from us towards you, or publicly (or privately, as the case may be) ask people to leave, or categorize members--all paying customers, most for long periods--into loyal and disloyal groups, it really makes me question what loyalty really buys me here?

Honestly, I haven't come to this place, or been willing to pay for my membership, for any reason involving you for a very long time. I come here for the great discussion and for the interesting people. I come here for DrungoHazewood, and Frobby, and Sports Guy, and NewMarketSean, and SammyBirdland, and Moose Milligan, and Pedro Cerrano, and ChaosLex, and Dipper_9, and mweb, and allstar1579, and TonySoprano, and bobmc, and dozens (likely hundreds) of others who come here regularly and discuss baseball and other sports and life in a way that makes we want to come back. Some of their real names I know, some not. Some of them I agree with often, others I disagree with constantly and aggressively. A few may like me, many (or most) probably don't. But they are with whom my loyalties lie, because they give me my reason to keep coming back.

And make no mistake: I've been posting a bit on Chris' board for a couple of months. He's doing a good job trying to build discussion. However, I don't think I spend measurably less time here, and with good reason. This is still the best place to talk baseball, and with the best people.

That is what makes me loyal. Not threats or passive-aggressive categorizations or choosing sides in a pissing match. The great people you have assembled here, Tony, are what keeps me here.

No matter our differences, or what may happen in the future, know this Tony: I thank you. I will be forever grateful to you for creating this place, and putting your blood, sweat and tears into it for many years. For keeping it going while you were overseas. For doing everything you could to build this place into a community so well-respected that it gets regular, serious mention in the local media. For encouraging the highest quality discussion among us members, and for removing those who couldn't handle that responsibility.

So, even if I disagree with your opinions on certain things, or on certain ways you run this place; even if I don't feel the need to tell you at every opportunity; even if down the road we part ways by choice or not; I will always respect you for what you have built and will always be loyal to this place before anywhere else. I just hope you would show some more loyalty my way, as well.

This was the first message board I ever joined. I have joined many others since, and all have fallen by the wayside because they didn't give me what this place does.

So, one more time: Tony, thank you.

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Tony,

I have been a reader of this site for close to a dozen years now. For most of that time, I have been an active member. I have been a paying customer since you instituted the Plus membership and I reached the threshold to pay. I actively defended you and this place on other message boards. I was even a contributor for a short time.

You keep talking about loyalty. Well, that goes both ways, and I don't think you are being very loyal to me or to many other long-time members.

People can disagree about particular ideas and still be loyal. The whole idea of the message board is to disagree and discuss. There can even be disagreement about specific aspects of the management and moderation--a cardinal sin if made public, and for absolutely good reason--while still leaving plenty of room for loyalty.

That's why when I see you attack people in ways that you would never, ever accept from us towards you, or publicly (or privately, as the case may be) ask people to leave, or categorize members--all paying customers, most for long periods--into loyal and disloyal groups, it really makes me question what loyalty really buys me here?

Honestly, I haven't come to this place, or been willing to pay for my membership, for any reason involving you for a very long time. I come here for the great discussion and for the interesting people. I come here for DrungoHazewood, and Frobby, and Sports Guy, and NewMarketSean, and SammyBirdland, and Moose Milligan, and Pedro Cerrano, and ChaosLex, and Dipper_9, and mweb, and allstar1579, and TonySoprano, and bobmc, and dozens (likely hundreds) of others who come here regularly and discuss baseball and other sports and life in a way that makes we want to come back. Some of their real names I know, some not. Some of them I agree with often, others I disagree with constantly and aggressively. A few may like me, many (or most) probably don't. But they are with whom my loyalties lie, because they give me my reason to keep coming back.

And make no mistake: I've been posting a bit on Chris' board for a couple of months. He's doing a good job trying to build discussion. However, I don't think I spend measurably less time here, and with good reason. This is still the best place to talk baseball, and with the best people.

That is what makes me loyal. Not threats or passive-aggressive categorizations or choosing sides in a pissing match. The great people you have assembled here, Tony, are what keeps me here.

No matter our differences, or what may happen in the future, know this Tony: I thank you. I will be forever grateful to you for creating this place, and putting your blood, sweat and tears into it for many years. For keeping it going while you were overseas. For doing everything you could to build this place into a community so well-respected that it gets regular, serious mention in the local media. For encouraging the highest quality discussion among us members, and for removing those who couldn't handle that responsibility.

So, even if I disagree with your opinions on certain things, or on certain ways you run this place; even if I don't feel the need to tell you at every opportunity; even if down the road we part ways by choice or not; I will always respect you for what you have built and will always be loyal to this place before anywhere else. I just hope you would show some more loyalty my way, as well.

This was the first message board I ever joined. I have joined many others since, and all have fallen by the wayside because they didn't give me what this place does.

So, one more time: Tony, thank you.

So you respect the fact that it takes a lot of time to develop, maintain, and keep order within a community of this size, and you enjoy the contributions of so many of its participants (minus me of course because no post of your would be complete without a passive-aggressive tone), yet you don't understand why I would think it's disloyal to post on a message board, run by a guy who was formerly part of my staff, who then used his position to send PMs through my own PM system to try and poach users? A guy who has publicly stated he doesn't know why anyone would pay for a message board when he did it for years? All I can say is if you don't understand, you don't understand. My position is clear. Posting in different forums or message boards is fine, posting on a board run by a guy who did it the way he did it, shows a lack of loyalty towards this community.

Now, as some people made it very clear, they don't feel it's disloyal nor do they feel they need to show any loyalty to a place. Well, I would say we are more than a message board, we are a community and if you feel that way, then you are a poster here, not a community member. I welcome anyone to post as long as they follow the rules, but the people I consider friends are the people who are community members. Everyone is different and everyone comes here for different reasons. Maybe the community thing isn't for some people and that's fine. They are welcome to post their thoughts. It's not a requirement to be a community member to post here. As long as you follow the rules you are welcome to post on this board.

Like you said, you haven't come here for any reason that has to do with me in years. That's fine because the Hangout is not about me or even liking me, it's about a community of individuals who enjoys Hanging out with each other and discussing things in their lives, including of course the Orioles. Some people feel a loyalty to others that they spend so much time with, others don't. I happen to enjoy the company of people who do.

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Somebody sent me the link to the thread on Stoner's site. So just in case people were wondering what I meant by a lack of loyalty, here you go.

Pedro Cerano:

"As for me posting here, I think if more of the OH regulars migrated over here then this would be come my new home. As it stands now, at any given time, there are 3-4 members browsing this board whereas at OH you're generally in the hundreds. More discussion over there still."

And yes, I realize that I'm being a part of the problem and not the solution."

So basically he's only here until things pick up over there. that's nice to know how much you enjoy the community here. Pedro has told me numerous times how much our community means to him, yet he's just waiting for things to pick up.

Allstar1579

"Yep this is pretty much where I'm at too. I still check in here a couple times a day, but just waiting for it to pick up a LITTLE more before I cancel everything over there, once I leave there it's for good."

I guess we kinda see why he was so defensive right off the bat. He's another one just playing out the string. No attachment, no loyalty, no respect.

Mweb

"It seems like this board is in a good position to become more like the prime version of OH. Not a ton of posters, but mostly good to great ones, and thus a high level of familiarity with most posters."

"BTW, you've reached 500 posts so it's time to start paying Chris."

And I saved the best for last. Yeah buddy, fall on your sword and make me out to be the bad guy. Crap, I can't believe I actually fell for your crap.

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Somebody sent me the link to the thread on Stoner's site. So just in case people were wondering what I meant by a lack of loyalty, here you go.

Pedro Cerano:

"As for me posting here, I think if more of the OH regulars migrated over here then this would be come my new home. As it stands now, at any given time, there are 3-4 members browsing this board whereas at OH you're generally in the hundreds. More discussion over there still."

And yes, I realize that I'm being a part of the problem and not the solution."

So basically he's only here until things pick up over there. that's nice to know how much you enjoy the community here. Pedro has told me numerous times how much our community means to him, yet he's just waiting for things to pick up.

Allstar1579

"Yep this is pretty much where I'm at too. I still check in here a couple times a day, but just waiting for it to pick up a LITTLE more before I cancel everything over there, once I leave there it's for good."

I guess we kinda see why he was so defensive right off the bat. He's another one just playing out the string. No attachment, no loyalty, no respect.

Mweb

"It seems like this board is in a good position to become more like the prime version of OH. Not a ton of posters, but mostly good to great ones, and thus a high level of familiarity with most posters."

"BTW, you've reached 500 posts so it's time to start paying Chris."

And I saved the best for last. Yeah buddy, fall on your sword and make me out to be the bad guy. Crap, I can't believe I actually fell for your crap.

Could you get anymore petty really? I mean I can still think of personal attacks you made at me because I didn't agree with your assessment of a prospect. I let it go. So why do you feel like I should forsake other sites (while still paying you money) for someone who has no problem taking personal shots at me because i disagree with an opinion? I said from the beginning, it's not about YOU, but you are doing your best to make me not want to spend money to not be belittled. All I wanted was to stay out of your little war of words with Chris, and you feel like you need to keep taking shots. I don't owe you loyalty over a website, you already get my money, we're even.

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I can actually appreciate what Tony is doing here and I don't blame him for citing my quote on the other board. He works hard on this site and I'd imagine the money he earns from plus memberships isn't worth the time put into the site. And no, I'm not trying to earn "brownie points", I feel that way. Plus I've already reached two birds, anything from here on out is icing on the cake.

As for my specific quote, this place does mean a lot to me but make no mistake, I will primarily post where the best discussion is. As I said, if more of the OH regulars went over there, that's where I'd go. I stand by that. And this has nothing to do with "loyalty" or anything like that. It has everything to do with maximizing my enjoyment of discussing sports and life in a message board forum.

I'll remain a member here and look forward to future discussions and maybe a .500 season.

Edited by Pedro Cerrano
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By the way, after scanning through the thread I saw that Sports Guy has made several comments that are just off the wall. It's too bad because honestly, I've never had a major problem with sports guy. I bought my wife's wedding band and necklace through him and I've probably sent him at least 10 people over the years to his business. He's a smart guy when it comes to baseball and if it weren't for his tone and delivery, I would have asked him years ago to contribute to the site. I've tolerated him for year skirting our rules, mainly because I felt his positives outweighed the negatives to the community. However, the one thing I can not allow is for someone to tell that he will do what he wants to do. That means he no longer respect the rules and feels above them. I respected the fact that he was part of Stoner's site because I knew they were longtime friends. I respected the fact that he still was part of our community as well. Despite that, no one is above the rules. All he had to do was Pm me back and say, "You know, you were right. I 'll tone it down. the ban would have been lifted and he would be back to his 300 post a day habit.

Unfortunately, rob has decided to say some things over in that thread that I just have to respond to:

"Chris wanted to bring in more content, Chris tried to make them realize that things like Paul's game takes and other content were worthless and no one cared...Chris was right."

The fact is that Paul's recaps gave the Hangout a nightly presence in the press box and were great reading for those who read them. Financially they were not a success, but giving Paul a place to write was a priority and I knew some people really enjoyed his recaps. I take great offense at anyone calling the hard work that Paul put in worthless.

"Chris provided some content that people cared about but even that didn't get a lot of play because no one even looks at the front page."

So no one read Paul's stuff because it was worthless and then no one read Stoner's stuff because it was on the front page (despite the fact a thread was created on the board)? I don't quite see the logic here.

"I see Weams is trying to vamp things up and he will do a good job as he always does but still, people won't care much about it because they go there for the board."

Yes, the board is our biggest portion of the site, but having one place to go to find the news and last nights boxscore from the majors and the minors is something people like. Weams is doing an outstanding job and I've gotten several compliments for site for the work he's been doing.

"Chris knew that and tried to get them to change some things and take the board to another level. They weren't interested and that's fine."

I'd to know what suggestions Chris had that were going to take the board to whole other level. Perhaps your site will bring out those ideas but he never expressed them to me.

"Isn't it funny how Tony has all these stories about people leaving, screwing him over, etc....? How does all that keep happening to the same person and yet that person always be in the right? For him to never be in the wrong in any of these situations is quite remarkable."

Who else have I said screwed me over? Umm, this is all pretty much the same situation. Stoner and I had an agreement, our content was falling off and I thought he would be a good guy to freshen it up. I asked him to take over the role as managing editor which would give him his first ever season press credential (amazing that Rob rags on our "horrible" content over the years but the Orioles till gave us season credentials). Scottie and I had already talked and he admitted he didn't have the time or desire to continue doing the managing editor thing. I respected him for doing that and we both knew Stoner's schedule was a better fit for the position. Afterall, Scott has a job, a wife, and kids to deal with and as someone who has done this for 17 years, I know how much you must be willing to give up to do it correctly.

I'm not going to get into the financial situation, but let's just say Stoner's lack of pay was not for lack of effort from my part. On multiple times I wanted to pay him for his work and he refused for reason. Again, I'm not going to get into his financial situation, but don't make it out like I was using him to work for free. Stoner told he would do teh season as the ME. He quit in August telling me only that, "his heart wasn't in it anymore."

"Seems to me that Tony was just waiting for a time to try to make things personal in a public forum and did so at a time when his biggest poster(who is friends with Chris) has been banned."

Stoner's site was only brought up when someone said that Stoner was using your banning to plug his site. After reading through that thread, it was obvious he was crowing about all the members from OH that had joined over there, even if some of them only posted a handful of times.

Had Stoner gone out and created a board because he wanted to have his own place I would have been like more power to him, but the fact is he used my PM system to contact my members to join his site. He actively recruited and encouraged other to recruit more of our members. He then went out of his way to actually ask, "why would you pay for message board?" which was a direct shot. He even said I should explain where the money goes, like I'm reaping some huge financial windfall from the plus members.

Now I've seen that Stoner has apologized for the abuse of the PM system, and that's all well and good. At the end of the day, the guy is trying to poach members from my site instead of just focusing on creating a good environment and allowing word of mouth to fuel his activity.

At the end of the day, I'm not about to lie and say I think a lot of Stoner. I'm not real big on people who purposely take shots at me or the Hangout. I have strong feelings about my community and probably to a fault, I care about my members like friends. That doesn't mean I don't get into some tussles here and there, but at the end of the day, I've worked it out with vast majority of people, just like friends do. They might argue, but at the end of the day they realize they enjoy each others company even if they don't always agree.

I probably have an unreal expectation that people have the same kind of loyalty as I do to family and friends. Some just look at this as a place to post their feelings and that's ok. I have feelings just like anyone else and even though I've grown tougher skin over the years, it still sucks when you see posters who you've grown to know show absolutely no loyalty and no respect. In fact, some even scoff at the notion that they should have any loyalty to a a group of people they have been hanging out with for years. I just find that off putting.

At the end of the day, I don't have problems with you Rob. I respect the fact that you are supporting your friend. the funny thing is if you spoke as clam and rationally as your mainly are during that thread, you would have had no problems on OH.

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Could you get anymore petty really? I mean I can still think of personal attacks you made at me because I didn't agree with your assessment of a prospect. I let it go. So why do you feel like I should forsake other sites (while still paying you money) for someone who has no problem taking personal shots at me because i disagree with an opinion? I said from the beginning, it's not about YOU, but you are doing your best to make me not want to spend money to not be belittled. All I wanted was to stay out of your little war of words with Chris, and you feel like you need to keep taking shots. I don't owe you loyalty over a website, you already get my money, we're even.

No problem. I appreciate the financial support. But once you are ready: http://www.orioleshangout.com/ccbill/index.htm. I'm nothing if not full service.

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