Jump to content
bigbird

And still no mionor league free agents.

Recommended Posts

Maybe I'm being naive here, but I don't see what the big deal is here. Even if we haven't signed anyone yet to fill our Triple-A (I've already heard we have signed some folks but we're waiting on the PR department to release the names), who cares?

I know bigbird has an agenda here and that's fine, we got it, his guy is getting shutout and/or doesn't have the same pull anymore and he's letting everyone know it. But seriously, we have several sources reporting that we have several offers for Bedard, a possible deal with the cubs for Roberts, and some interest for Tejada. The season doesn't start tomorrow so what's the big deal? Last year the O's signed Knott and House in late December, early January.

We have no idea yet what type of talent we will get back for the the big three so why clutter up Triple-A with a bunch of AAAA guys for depth right now? If we don't sign some now, we can surely sign them when some are released or ask to be released instead of going to the minors with another club if they think they have a better chance of seeing more major league time with the rebuilding Orioles.

I'm just amazed that terms are being thrown around suggesting AM is not working hard or has not done anything. AM has shown patience in the past and look how the Trachsel deal went down. Now we here teams like the Cardinals and Reds are entering the Bedard sweepstakes.

I have no idea if the front office folks don't know what to do on a daily basis, but what is clear is AM is in charge, and he's working a lot of teams seeing who's going to blink first and give him the kind of prospects we need to rebuild this team.

I'm not concerned over anything this off season to tell you the truth. AM has patience, I have patience, and I still beleive we are all going to be happy by the time spring training roles around.

This is a great point, Tony. I'm amazed when some people post things about what's going on in the front office when they obviously have no idea. If you don't know something maybe you should keep quiet. When you make something up out of thin air just because you want to make a point you end up looking foolish.

This thread has been very revealing. I've lost some faith in a few people I used to respect more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I really don't think Bako's mediocre/bad defense was better than House's enough to make up for his lack of hitting ability, but we had a long thread about this a while ago. Either way, Bako's level of performance had already been established, whereas you never know what you could get from House. The season was over already anyway, so why go with the old guy?

You're right we did have a very large thread on it. I did do some math and was going to post it but unfortunately I never got the post off. Hadn't gotten around to posting it on here. I would post it right now, but it's on another computer and said computer is currently at Best Buy right now, supposedly going to be fixed, so I'll see if I'm able to get it back up on here tomorrow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will say that one thing frustrating about the FO last season was thatfrom Aug 1 on one of House or Knott would have been in the lineup every night if I was running things. Neither are going to be long term impact guys in the Majors IMO. However I think both have done enough in the minors, that a two month hot streak might actually make them worth something in some deal. I know that the Vets will grumble about not seeing the field quite as much but if you know your dimantling the team over the next year it is what should have been done. Last years FOs did not plan on blowing it up however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will say that one thing frustrating about the FO last season was thatfrom Aug 1 on one of House or Knott would have been in the lineup every night if I was running things. Neither are going to be long term impact guys in the Majors IMO. However I think both have done enough in the minors, that a two month hot streak might actually make them worth something in some deal. I know that the Vets will grumble about not seeing the field quite as much but if you know your dimantling the team over the next year it is what should have been done. Last years FOs did not plan on blowing it up however.
I think the decision to rebuild was probably in the works by that time and the best thing would be to give the "vets" an opportunity to up their value so it might be easier to get rid of them in the off season. Since House and Knott indeed didn't factor in to our long term plans what good would it do to take plate time from Huff, Millar, Mora etc. Huff's resurgence at the end of the year e.g., might make it possible to move him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gordo's point of why we probally didnt use Knott and House at the end is probally correct using hindsight. It makes too much sense given that we also didnt use Moore much either and I couldnt understand that one at all.

Boosting our guys for trade value. Obvious now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You could have an unpaid intern scour Baseball America all summer to set up minor league free agent targets in time for the end of the season.

But didn't AM have his staff working with him to learn all about our minor leauge players not so much other teams minor league players

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually, IIRC he was called up, immediately hit a 3-run home run against TB to tie the game, and was sent back down two days later. He had a .368 OBP in Baltimore and a .797 OPS. That was probably in the top five on the team and miles ahead of who we were putting out there. You can't really blame Knott for failing to perform in Yankee Stadium in September when he wasn't given the chance.

By flopping I was talking about making an impression at Norfolk over the first three months. I am not talking about a handfull of ABs in Baltimore, when the team had probably drawn conclusions about him already.

He wasn't given a chance in Yankee Stadium in September because he had his chance earlier in AAA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
By flopping I was talking about making an impression at Norfolk over the first three months. I am not talking about a handfull of ABs in Baltimore, when the team had probably drawn conclusions about him already.

He wasn't given a chance in Yankee Stadium in September because he had his chance earlier in AAA.

What about the 2,368 MiL AB's he had before the 288 AB's in Norfolk last year when he managed to put up a 900+ OPS?

Norfolk's stadium is huge so his numbers were down a bit. I agree that he should have done a little better in his time at Norfolk, but if the team was looking at his Norfolk AB's at the expense of his MiL career, then they made a big mistake. And anyone else on these boards who did that and use that as an excuse are dead wrong too.

And BTW, even in Norfolk's stadium he still managed to post a .807 OPS last season. Bottom line is that he should have been given more of a chance. This is a black and white issue. It can't be debated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What about the 2,368 MiL AB's he had before the 288 AB's in Norfolk last year when he managed to put up a 900+ OPS?

Norfolk's stadium is huge so his numbers were down a bit. I agree that he should have done a little better in his time at Norfolk, but if the team was looking at his Norfolk AB's at the expense of his MiL career, then they made a big mistake. And anyone else on these boards who did that and use that as an excuse are dead wrong too.

And BTW, even in Norfolk's stadium he still managed to post a .807 OPS last season. Bottom line is that he should have been given more of a chance. This is a black and white issue. It can't be debated.

I believe the role that everyone wanted to use Knott in was as a RH hitting LHP specialist, platoon guy. Well, here are his OBP's against lefties the last 3 years:

2005: 332 (in a huge hitters park)

2006: 405 (in a huge hitters park)

2007: 312 (in a pitchers park)

I really think he's overrated on here. I think that if we would've plugged him in as hitting lefties only, we would've been very disappointed in his performance. Every year guys that are career minor leaguers have a great season in the minors and everyone screams that they should be given a shot and they sink back into more minor league anonymity like Knott did.

If you're arguing that they should never have signed Payton and that Knott would've been a better option, then I agree. But there are plenty more options than Knott that we could've explored before settling for him, however.

Once MacPhail/Trembley were in charge, I don't fault them for playing Gibbons/Millar/Huff/Payton. Those guys are being much, much more money and they were trying to establish some trade value.

Arguing that getting very hefty contracts off our hands and hopefully trying to net at least one prospect that could help for the future as opposed to giving a career minor leaguer a few extra AB's that may or may not have helped us win some more meaningless games is hardly something that can't be debated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, Payton was the guy who hit LHP pretty well, so most people lobbied to have Payton as the LHP portion of that platoon. People also said that there was probably no way Payton would have been happy doing it either, which is why I remember him being the LHP portion of the platoon in our fantasy.

But it all comes down to looking at the future when you're losing with me. And by not playing House and Knott, the Orioles weren't looking toward the future. They were content to "give time to players they owed a lot of money to and guys they wanted to trade" even though we all knew no one was going to take any of these guys anyway.

The Orioles very rarely man up and admit mistakes, and my giving Payton, Bako and Co. all that playing time at the expense of Knott and House was a mistake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the main purpose of Minor League free agents is not somuch for AA or AAA depth, but for hoping to find that diamond in the rough to help the big league roster.

Remember a few years back when the O's had Jay Witasick on a minor league deal? Of course the team foolishly cut him, and he went to Colorado and pitched well (and Colorado traded him to Oakland). The Orioles should be rolling the dice and seeing what's out there, hoping to land useful major league players. It worked with Rodrigo Lopez. It can work again. And if you get a useful player, that just adds to players that can be dealt for propsects.

Yes, it is likely no minor league free agents make an impact. And the failure to sign any isn't a big deal. But there's no reason not to do it, and the Orioles have enough people working for them that someone should be doing it. It doesn't have to be MacPhail, but someone in the organization surely has time to look into it. Particularly since this team has so few good players, anyone looking for a minor league deal has to see this as a decent shot at playing time. And who knows? Maybe you hit that diamond in the rough, like Tampa Bay did with Carlos Pena.

Sign enough guys, see how they look in spring training and hopefully find at least one guy who is useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually, Payton was the guy who hit LHP pretty well, so most people lobbied to have Payton as the LHP portion of that platoon. People also said that there was probably no way Payton would have been happy doing it either, which is why I remember him being the LHP portion of the platoon in our fantasy.

But it all comes down to looking at the future when you're losing with me. And by not playing House and Knott, the Orioles weren't looking toward the future. They were content to "give time to players they owed a lot of money to and guys they wanted to trade" even though we all knew no one was going to take any of these guys anyway.

The Orioles very rarely man up and admit mistakes, and my giving Payton, Bako and Co. all that playing time at the expense of Knott and House was a mistake.

So Knott was slated to be the RHP portion of the platoon? His OBP's against righties over the last few years in that case:

2005: 333

2006: 336

2007: 371

Once again, still not all that spectacular. 2005 and 2006 were played in extreme hitters parks, in AAA mind you. This year, I think he was helped by a 336 BABIP against RHP. His 428 SLG against righties is also nothing to write home about at all.

When the Orioles play Huff, Millar, Payton, and Gibbons, they're giving a last ditch effort at trying to establish trade value. Millar and Huff could conceivably go this winter I believe. Payton has an outside shot. Gibbons probably wasn't going to go and the steroids+suspension was the final nail in the coffin, I'll grant you.

Huff is actually somebody I want to keep around. He really established a very nice groove towards the end of the year and if he could possibly do that for the first half of the year, I think we're looking at a very, very nice deadline deal. I think that teams would look at a very good 2nd half as well, and that would work to our advantage. I actually think that MacPhail/Trembley starting him towards the end of the year was a good thing, not a bad thing.

Millar I think probably should have been traded at the deadline. I think that he possibly could net us something nice in a trade as of right now. If not, he has potential to be a deadline deal as well.

I think we should keep Payton hoping that he bounces back. I think that his 266 BABIP reveals that he was probably unlucky at times. He was HORRIBLE at hitting RHP this year, but he did have a 257 BABIP against them. Although if somebody is willing to take the final year of his contract off our hands right now, I'd deal him in a second. But I don't want to eat all of his contract and watch him bounce back with a more lucky BABIP.

Establishing trade value for guys that are dead weight from the previous regime is more important than winning a couple more meaningless games with minor league players that are clones of others. If we're a contending team and we're looking to win every game possible, I would agree that making the bench filled with great hitters and trying to spell and mix and match would be a good plan. But if we're a team that has no shot, which the Orioles don't, then I think that trying to trade away overpaid players is the most important priority and is in fact looking towards the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All I know is that since 2004 Jon knott has posted an OPS of .906, .816, .925, and .807. JR House has posted an OPS of .845, .913, and .828. Meanwhile the Orioles have given AB's to the likes of Paul Bako, Alberto Castillo, Luis Hernandez, Brandon Fahey, Freddy Bynum, and Jay Payton instead.

I don't think I need to post their OBP against RHP or LHP to show you how bad those guys were collectively. Bottom line is that they had 2 guys who had good careers in the MiL and used guys with horrible numbers at the MiL level and guys who were washed up at the MLB level instead. All in a losing season where they should have been evaluating talent to see if it could be used in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All I know is that since 2004 Jon knott has posted an OPS of .906, .816, .925, and .807. JR House has posted an OPS of .845, .913, and .828. Meanwhile the Orioles have given AB's to the likes of Paul Bako, Alberto Castillo, Luis Hernandez, Brandon Fahey, Freddy Bynum, and Jay Payton instead.

I don't think I need to post their OBP against RHP or LHP to show you how bad those guys were collectively. Bottom line is that they had 2 guys who had good careers in the MiL and used guys with horrible numbers at the MiL level and guys who were washed up at the MLB level instead. All in a losing season where they should have been evaluating talent to see if it could be used in the future.

Remember, Jon Knott spent 2004-2006 in an extreme hitters park, in a hitters league, in AAA. In 2006, his 925 OPS translated to a 787 OPS in MLB. In 2005, his OPS translated to a 703 OPS in MLB. He's inconsistent and his inconsistencies run to the point that he's not a huge upgrade over even Jay Payton. When you factor in defense and speed on the basepaths, it's actually probably a dead heat. I'm not defending the signing of Jay Payton, however, as I don't like him as a player and I think he's way overpaid, but he's not criminally underutilized either like you would lead to believe.

Give me time on the House/Bako thing. I did some math that made it come out to a dead heat as far as the difference between their defense and their offense. It pretty much comes out to a wash. Towards the end of the year, if Leo Mazzone et al. thought that Bako would help the development of our young pitchers a little more, that's fine with me. The difference between the two of them isn't great, if it's at all any, and even if it was a marginal improvement, having our young pitchers develop better is more important than winning some more meaningless games. How's that for thinking about the future?

Having Brandon Fahey play LF is relatively inexcusable, I'd agree. He didn't really last year, however. I do agree that Sam Perlozzo wasn't a good manager, and that's probably the reason why he doesn't have a managerial job as of right now. Alberto Castillo was brought up when Ramon Hernandez went down. I think they were trying to have JR House work on his catching, consistently, hit while catching, and just brought up Castillo. Having House come up here and be roughly a wash with Bako, if not worse, isn't my idea of smart management. If they were trying to have House work on his catching, trying to improve him, that's fine with me.

Luis Hernandez was brought up to fill in for Miguel Tejada at SS when he went down. Some on here campaigned for Hernandez to replace Tejada as an everyday SS. However, I can't ever remember the Orioles campaigning for that. Would you have rather put House/Knott at SS?!?!

Duquette was not a good GM, I agree. However, I do think that MacPhail did the right thing when he came here from the get-go. He saw that his predecessor had signed some players to some bad contracts and he sought to hope that they improve in order to hopefully get a trade/picks in the future. That is more important to me than winning a few extra games with guys who may or may not be better, all while not improving the team going forward at all.

The upshot, would you rather have a couple meaningless more wins or the possibility of the bad contracts turning into prospects down the road that can help you in the future? The alternative is straight up cutting the contracts and having that burn on your payroll. By giving them PT, you at least give yourself a chance to fix the situation. I don't know about you, but for me, it's not even close.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Orioles Information


Orioles News and Information

Daily Organizational Boxscores
News

Tony's Takes

Orioles Roster Resource

Orioles Prospect Information

2018 End of Season Top 30 Prospects List

Prospect Scouting Reports

Statistics

2019 Orioles Stats

2019 Orioles Minor League Stats

Baseball Savant Stats






×
×
  • Create New...