Ken Rosenthal's take on where Soriono will go?!?!

[rolliefingers]

Yes, there is a difference in the hitting, but that is not created by the FA's they signed vs the ones we signed. Miggy>Magglio...Ramon>Pudge. And it's not close.

They got 81 HRs combined from Inge, Monroe and Thames (although only Thames really had a good offensive season - 124 OPS+). Raise your hand if you predicted that.

The difference between the O's and the Tigers is pitching. Both the bullpen and rotation. They also didn't play the season with an offensive black hole in LF.

We've done well for ourselves in the FA market, despite having a gridlocked FO. The difference is that their young arms have delivered and ours mostly haven't. Ordonez has NOTHING to do with it, and Rodriguez had a little bit to do with it. Rogers, well, we missed the boat.

BTW, my point is, and always has been, that we do not need a big-money FA to have a good team. We need several good players, not one or two great ones. And we need the pitching to come through, just like everyone in baseball does. What I'm saying is that in order for us to compete in the next few years, sure we need to make good acquisitions, but we also need a lot of luck (players not getting injured, for one). If DET hadn't had a healthy Bonderman, Zumaya and Verlander, they might not have even had a winning record.

[66-70-83-??]

BTW, my point is, and always has been, that we do not need a big-money FA to have a good team. We need several good players, not one or two great ones. And we need the pitching to come through, just like everyone in baseball does. What I'm saying is that in order for us to compete in the next few years, sure we need to make good acquisitions, but we also need a lot of luck.

No one is arguing that we do not need a big-money FA to have a good team.

But, if one is available and we can afford it, especially at a position of need- why not ? It makes us that much better than another older stopgap or middle of the road player. Not to mention that signing a superstar does improve the morale of the team and energizes the fans more than a yawner of a signing.

The difference between the O's and the Tigers is pitching.

Ordonez has NOTHING to do with it, and Rodriguez had a little bit to do with it. Rogers, well, we missed the boat.

This is where you lose many- Ordonez has "NOTHING" to do with their success ? Dumbrowski, Leyland, and the other 24 players would laugh at that assessment. He didn't have a typical Ordonez year, but he hit 24 HR, 104 RBI, and an .827 OPS which is higher than Tejada's career avg (and he is a pretty good player), and higher than our RF (.791) and I doubt people here would say that Markakis didn't add value to our lineup.

The difference between the Orioles goes way beyond the pitching. It starts at the top with the owner/GM/mgr and how the organization is run.

We aren't just a little luck away from being the Tigers.

[Boca Bird]

I'm not re-reading that disaster of a thread to get an explanation that doesn't make sense and/or have merit. I don't have much of a problem with your position on Soriano though, I wouldn't spend as much for him, but your position is somewhat understandable on that.

Wow, so when someone calls something in advance and it happens, it still doesn't make sense or have merit. Even I.S. ackwoledged me being right in that thread. HE even offered me a cookie

However, the Tigers reference is an absolute joke. You act as if they went out and made big moves and took risks while we did not, while in fact, we made more big moves, and probably better moves as a whole. You give them credit for their moves and say we should follow their example, however we already did what they did in free agency/trades, and again, arguably better. To finish following their example, we would need our young pitching to step it up many notches, find a few diamonds in the rough, and get lucky like the Tigers did with Guillen.

Oh, so now you're actually acknowledging that the Tigers FA signings helped them? During the overpaying thread, you acted as if the FA's were not a factor in helping them at all. As a matter of fact, you propsed starting Thames over Ordonez. You questioned what affect a HOF catcher had on its young pitching staff. You scoffed that (23 scoreless postseason IP) KRog was worth his contract. How Jones as a closer allowing Zumaya another year to develop wasn't that important

Moreover, its not a joke. You just can't fathom the aspect of RESULTS. The Tigers were bold and overpaid, and even though they didn't win the WS, they are now officially repectable. The O's situation is similar to the Tigers in that they are one of the worst franchises in baseball (just like Detorit used to be). IF they want to get back to respectability before this decade ends, they have to take advantage of free agency.They have the resouces, put them back in the team

If you want to argue we should take more risks, spend more money, well great, I'm all for that, although my risks would be different than yours, but please stop with this absurd Tigers arguement.

How is it absurd? The Tigers, like us had trouble attracting FA's. The Tigers believed they had good core young pitching. Sound familiar ? They were a proud franchise mired in consecutive losing seasons streak. Where have I heard tha before? The Tigers comparison is an apt analogy. After the Tigers got in the WS, several local sportswriters made the same comparison. I guess they are all way off base too. Everyone is wrong, right ?

First you said Det's FA signing ahd nothing to do with the Tigers success. Now you're changing the argument to our FA signings were "better". AS time goes by, you keep changing the argument. One could only wonder what you thought when Ordonez hit the homer to put in the series

Calling something absurd doesn't make it absurd

[Boca Bird]

It was all about the pitching...

I submit that had the Orioles pitchers developed as well as Detroits did and put up a 3.84 ERA and Detroits pitchers pitched as poorly as Baltimore's did then the Tigers would of been a 90 loss team and the O's would of been a 90 win team. And the Baltimore acquisitions would be being discussed on Tigers Hangout as great moves and they'd be talking about their inept front office not having done enough.

If "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts, everyday would be Christmas

[Mark Carver]

This is where you lose many- Ordonez has "NOTHING" to do with their success ? Dumbrowski, Leyland, and the other 24 players would laugh at that assessment. He didn't have a typical Ordonez year, but he hit 24 HR, 104 RBI

Ordonez had a typical year based on his last 2 years...

2004 - 110 OPS+

2005 - 113 OPS+

2006 - 113 OPS+

Certainly not worth the $15m a year owed to him the next 5 years.

and an .827 OPS which is higher than Tejada's career avg (and he is a pretty good player),

What is that? Your saying that Ordonez is better than Tejada? What does his career average OPS have to do with anything about what Ordonez his this year. Tejada had a 126 OPS+ to Ordonez 113 OPS+ this year. That's all that matters.

and higher than our RF (.791) and I doubt people here would say that Markakis didn't add value to our lineup.

Ordonez was still in the minors at age 22 (Markakis age).

The difference between the Orioles goes way beyond the pitching. It starts at the top with the owner/GM/mgr and how the organization is run.

We aren't just a little luck away from being the Tigers.

[Boca Bird]

Yes, there is a difference in the hitting, but that is not created by the FA's they signed vs the ones we signed. Miggy>Magglio...Ramon>Pudge. And it's not close.

Sorry I had to clean my monitor after I spit my drink out on it. I agree with Miggy, but Irod is the best catcher EVER, and a sure 1st ballot HOFer. The only advantage Ramon has over IRod is youth. You are really missing the boat if you don't think Irod had anything to do with that young pitching staff or Roger's resurgence.

Before you tell me that I have no "merit" or that I'm "absurd" you can read the Tigers pitcher's comments about what Pudge has done to help them develop

[Frobby]

Sorry I had to clean my monitor after I spit my drink out on it. I agree with Miggy, but Irod is the best catcher EVER, and a sure 1st ballot HOFer. The only advantage Ramon has over IRod is youth. You are really missing the boat if you don't think Irod had anything to do with that young pitching staff or Roger's resurgence.

Before you tell me that I have no "merit" or that I'm "absurd" you can read the Tigers pitcher's comments about what Pudge has done to help them develop

Your point is irrelevant to what mweb8 was saying. He was only talking about offense, and he was only talking about during the period covered by the players' current contracts. Pudge's offense has slipped badly the least 2 years and I think it is fair to say Ramon is the better offensive player, just as Miggy is a better offensive player than Ordonez now.

I happen to agree with you, however, that Pudge's defense cannot be ignored when analyzing the imapct of that acquisition. He's awesome. And his history with both the Marlins and the Tigers shows he's very adept at handling young pitchers.

[rolliefingers]

No one is arguing that we do not need a big-money FA to have a good team.

But, if one is available and we can afford it, especially at a position of need- why not ? It makes us that much better than another older stopgap or middle of the road player. Not to mention that signing a superstar does improve the morale of the team and energizes the fans more than a yawner of a signing.

This is where you lose many- Ordonez has "NOTHING" to do with their success ? Dumbrowski, Leyland, and the other 24 players would laugh at that assessment. He didn't have a typical Ordonez year, but he hit 24 HR, 104 RBI, and an .827 OPS which is higher than Tejada's career avg (and he is a pretty good player), and higher than our RF (.791) and I doubt people here would say that Markakis didn't add value to our lineup.

The difference between the Orioles goes way beyond the pitching. It starts at the top with the owner/GM/mgr and how the organization is run.

We aren't just a little luck away from being the Tigers.

What I'm saying is that lots of OFs put up an .827 OPS last year for far less money. Among them: Jacque Jones, our old friend Gary Matthews, Austin Kearns. Hell, Emil Brown put up an .815!

I'm sure DET has zero buyer's remorse on Maggs at this point. They rolled the dice, it worked out for them, congrats to them. But to hold that up as a sustainable business model is nuts. How are they going to feel about that contract when they want to lock up Bonderman and Verlander? Will he be their Albert Belle?

And that's what I'm worried about with Soriano. I'd rather spend that money on several short-term deals for solid players than on one astronomical long-term deal for one player. I know everyone wants to stick it to Angelos, but until he commits to a payroll of $100 million or so (and who really thinks that will happen?), those kinds of contracts will hinder this franchise. We'll be cutting off our nose to spite our face...or something.

[ScottieBaseball]

The problem is as as player gets older, the possibility of injuries go way up. So, even though Soriano has been pretty durable now, it doesn't mean that will continue.

Wouldn't you agree, though, that this overall, broad mentality when it comes to prospective free agents and trades is what has prevented us from making a significant upgrade (aside from Tejada) over the last few years?

Soriano presents a significant upgrade at a position of need. He is one of the game's superstars. I could see if at the end of a 6-year contract he was going to be 38 or 39, but he'll be 36 years old at the end of that deal.

I understand and agree that free agents should be analyzed in just such a fashion and your concern is valid, but I question the likelihood of that scenario panning out.

If the choices are between overpaying for Soriano and platooning 2 guys, I say break out the checkbook. No one is going to come back to Oriole Park to watch Dellucci and Catallanotto, but people will come back to watch one of the most fierce hitters in baseball.

On the subject of platooning...I don't think it's an ideal situation to have 2 MLB'ers splitting time at a position going into spring training. Every guy wants a full-time job and I can't envision a situation where 2 guys like Dellucci and Cat would A) be agreeable to a scenario in which they're not even coming in to compete for the full-time job, and B) agree to all of that here in Baltimore. Maybe if it was for a legitimate contender, yes. It might be worth a slightly-more-than part-time role to get a ring, but not here.

I think platoons just sort of evolve out of necessity and exhausting other options. Hopefully it doesn't come down to that in 2007 for the O's.

[66-70-83-??]

Certainly not worth the $15m a year owed to him the next 5 years.

First of all, his "worth" is subjective. To you or me, he may not be worth it.

But, to the Tigers and their fans he may be. Or they may not care. Whatever he or any other player is worth- the sum total of the team is worth what the owner is paying.

Second- that wasn't what I took issue with. I took issue with the statement that "Ordonez had NOTHING to do with the their success".

I don't believe that. Do you ?

What is that? Your saying that Ordonez is better than Tejada?

Not now he isn't. But, over his total career he has been.

[geschinger]

If "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts, everyday would be Christmas

Just makling a point that cannot be refuted.

[geschinger]

Soriano presents a significant upgrade at a position of need. He is one of the game's superstars. I could see if at the end of a 6-year contract he was going to be 38 or 39, but he'll be 36 years old at the end of that deal.

Is he though? If I thought we'd get performance similar to this year throughout the contract I might feel differently. However, I think he's a lot more likely to perform at a similar level to the one he performed at in Texas than he is to perform like he did in Washington. And in that not unlikely scenario I think we'd be paying superstar prices for a level of production not close to superstar levels.

[Boca Bird]

Just makling a point that cannot be refuted.

Just making a hypothetical point that has no relevance whatsoever to actual reality.

[geschinger]

First of all, his "worth" is subjective. To you or me, he may not be worth it.

But, to the Tigers and their fans he may be. Or they may not care. Whatever he or any other player is worth- the sum total of the team is worth what the owner is paying.

Do you think he'll be considered worth it to the Tigers and their fans if the Tigers can't resign Bonderman for financial reasons?

[geschinger]

Just making a hypothetical point that has no relevance whatsoever to actual reality.

If you don't think Detroits pitching was the primary reason for their success then I can't help you.

All I know is if Baltimore's young pitching develops and we put up a 3.84 ERA next year that we are going to win a heck of a lot of games regardless of whether we take risks and overpay for Ordonez type talent.