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Ken Rosenthal's take on where Soriono will go?!?!

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Your point is irrelevant to what mweb8 was saying. He was only talking about offense, and he was only talking about during the period covered by the players' current contracts. Pudge's offense has slipped badly the least 2 years and I think it is fair to say Ramon is the better offensive player, just as Miggy is a better offensive player than Ordonez now.

Pudge's defense might be irrelevant to MWeb, but I don't agree, and I certainly don't think the Tigers would agree. ;)

I happen to agree with you, however, that Pudge's defense cannot be ignored when analyzing the imapct of that acquisition. He's awesome. And his history with both the Marlins and the Tigers shows he's very adept at handling young pitchers.

Exactly. To a man, that staff flushes with praise for how much Pudge has helped them develop, even that 41 yr old youngster , KRog.

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]If you don't think Detroits pitching was the primary reason for their success then I can't help you.[/i]

All I know is if Baltimore's young pitching develops and we put up a 3.84 ERA next year that we are going to win a heck of a lot of games regardless of whether we take risks and overpay for Ordonez type talent.

I do think their pitching was a huge factor. I've never said that it wasn't. I'm also capable of seeing that their free agents signings helped too. Moreover, the success of their young pitching is why I think the O's should take risks too on some FA's to help our young pitching.

Who knew, you can develop your own players and use free agency :confused:

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Who knew, you can develop your own players and use free agency :confused:

Wow! Something I can agree with! :eek:

We've matched Detroit in using free agency, where we've fallen short is on the develop your own player portion of the formula. If we can match their success in the development of players, we too can be a winning team!

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QUICK! Somebody call the Warehouse and let them know! Go figure...for the last decade or so we've been almost entirely inept at both!

While they haven't had optimal success in FA losing out on a couple of guys that would of been nice to have wearing orange and black (Vlad) to say they've been entirely inept is way off base.

The Orioles have been more successful in free agency than many teams over the past couple of years. No long term albatross contracts and a couple of very good signings - Tejada and Hernandez. Inept PR when it comes to FA but there is no compelling argument that can be made that the results indicate ineptness.

However, the franchise has been inept at player development, but surely you'd agree that things have gotten significantly better in that regard over the past couple of years. Unfortunately it takes a while to build things back up after years of neglect.

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While they haven't had optimal success in FA losing out on a couple of guys that would of been nice to have wearing orange and black (Vlad) to say they've been entirely inept is way off base.

The Orioles have been more successful in free agency than many teams over the past couple of years. No long term albatross contracts and a couple of very good signings - Tejada and Hernandez. Inept PR when it comes to FA but there is no compelling argument that can be made that the results indicate ineptness.

However, the franchise has been inept at player development, but surely you'd agree that things have gotten significantly better in that regard over the past couple of years. Unfortunately it takes a while to build things back up after years of neglect.

Becaue we all know the goal is to not be saddled with any long term bad contrats.

I'd rather win 84 games with some bad contracts than win 70 games without any bad contracts.

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Becaue we all know the goal is to not be saddled with any long term bad contrats.

I'd rather win 84 games with some bad contracts than win 70 games without any bad contracts.

How about we win 84 games with several short-term deals instead? Or would that not "excite the fan base" enough?

I guarantee you that if this team plays well again next year, people will come back, Soriano or no. It's about putting a good team on the field that is sustainable. Forget all this "the fans want to see money spent" stuff. The fans want to see a winner, period. The question is how do we get there. I do not think Soriano is the answer.

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Becaue we all know the goal is to not be saddled with any long term bad contrats.

I'd rather win 84 games with some bad contracts than win 70 games without any bad contracts.

The goal is to win. Teams without unlimited payrolls that saddle themselves with bad contracts don't. I don't want to be the second coming of the Colorodo Rockies or Texas Rangers teams of a few years back.

I'd much rather be the second coming of the Athletics or Twins or the Yankees of the mid/late 90s. Build like the A's and Twins and Yankees but unlike the A's and Twins, we have the resources to resign players who we develop into stars.

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QUICK! Somebody call the Warehouse and let them know! Go figure...for the last decade or so we've been almost entirely inept at both!

I disagree with this we have used FA effectively since the year we signed Miggy and Lopez. Recently we have developed Major league players. However the organization is still trying to overcome the hangover of 10 years or so of horrible drafting and player development. Unless you are the Yankees you simply can't buy playoff appearances. For the record the Yankees current run is not based entirely on buying players either it started with player development during George's suspension. Currently the MFYs only add a couple of pieces a year always adding to thier core not replacing the entire thing. At the point that the O's develop enough players that they have atleast 8 league averag or better position players and 7 above average pitchers the O's level of FA involvement will be considered adequate.

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How about we win 84 games with several short-term deals instead? Or would that not "excite the fan base" enough?

I guarantee you that if this team plays well again next year, people will come back, Soriano or no. It's about putting a good team on the field that is sustainable. Forget all this "the fans want to see money spent" stuff. The fans want to see a winner, period. The question is how do we get there. I do not think Soriano is the answer.

I agree with you that the fans mostly just want to see a better team, and they really don't care how they get there.

Whether the O's should chase Soriano depends in part on how much they will be allowed to spend to improve the team. If getting him means we won't have enough money left to improve in other areas, then I have to agree with you. But if we could get Soriano AND improve some other spots, I'd be for it even if Soriano will be grossly overpaid in the back end of his deal.

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I agree with you that the fans mostly just want to see a better team, and they really don't care how they get there.

Whether the O's should chase Soriano depends in part on how much they will be allowed to spend to improve the team. If getting him means we won't have enough money left to improve in other areas, then I have to agree with you. But if we could get Soriano AND improve some other spots, I'd be for it even if Soriano will be grossly overpaid in the back end of his deal.

I agree. I'm fine with getting Soriano is the payroll goes up significantly, and we make sure that the bullpen and bench are taken care of. Unfortunately, if we were to get Soriano, I could see us sticking with guys like Chavez and Fahey because we ran out of money. We don't even have a budget yet, apparently!

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Wow, so when someone calls something in advance and it happens, it still doesn't make sense or have merit. Even I.S. ackwoledged me being right in that thread. HE even offered me a cookie :P

Oh, so now you're actually acknowledging that the Tigers FA signings helped them? During the overpaying thread, you acted as if the FA's were not a factor in helping them at all. As a matter of fact, you propsed starting Thames over Ordonez. You questioned what affect a HOF catcher had on its young pitching staff. You scoffed that (23 scoreless postseason IP) KRog was worth his contract. How Jones as a closer allowing Zumaya another year to develop wasn't that important :eek:

Moreover, its not a joke. You just can't fathom the aspect of RESULTS. The Tigers were bold and overpaid, and even though they didn't win the WS, they are now officially repectable. The O's situation is similar to the Tigers in that they are one of the worst franchises in baseball (just like Detorit used to be). IF they want to get back to respectability before this decade ends, they have to take advantage of free agency.They have the resouces, put them back in the team

How is it absurd? The Tigers, like us had trouble attracting FA's. The Tigers believed they had good core young pitching. Sound familiar ? They were a proud franchise mired in consecutive losing seasons streak. Where have I heard tha before? The Tigers comparison is an apt analogy. After the Tigers got in the WS, several local sportswriters made the same comparison. I guess they are all way off base too. Everyone is wrong, right ? :confused:

First you said Det's FA signing ahd nothing to do with the Tigers success. Now you're changing the argument to our FA signings were "better". AS time goes by, you keep changing the argument. One could only wonder what you thought when Ordonez hit the homer to put in the series

Calling something absurd doesn't make it absurd

Your putting so many words in my mouth it's not even funny. I never said half the stuff you're claiming I did. Of course the FA's they signed have helped them, although not as much as you would expect given the investment. They could have easily gotten just as good or better help while spending less money and committing less years to free agents. And their free agents are far from being the key to their success and may hinder their ability to keep their own or add other top free agents.

I've mentioned this same argument(comparing what the Tigers did to what the O's did) before, so I'm not sure how I'm changing it. And you still haven't responded to it. We did what they did in terms of free agency, and probably better. If you want us to emulate the Tigers, well we've already done the free agency step, we just need our young pitching to step it up a lot and some other guys to step it up. But again, I want to the O's to add more, to spend money, just not for Soriano if he gets what I expect him to get.

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Sorry I had to clean my monitor after I spit my drink out on it. I agree with Miggy, but Irod is the best catcher EVER, and a sure 1st ballot HOFer. The only advantage Ramon has over IRod is youth. You are really missing the boat if you don't think Irod had anything to do with that young pitching staff or Roger's resurgence.

Before you tell me that I have no "merit" or that I'm "absurd" you can read the Tigers pitcher's comments about what Pudge has done to help them develop

Yes Irod is going to be a HOF'er, although not likely the best catcher ever, but Ramon had a better individual season than he did. His bat is clearly an advantage. I'm not saying Irod doesn't help the pitching, but I don't think nearly as much as you think he does. Ramon is considered good with pitchers and good defensively as well.

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Your point is irrelevant to what mweb8 was saying. He was only talking about offense, and he was only talking about during the period covered by the players' current contracts. Pudge's offense has slipped badly the least 2 years and I think it is fair to say Ramon is the better offensive player, just as Miggy is a better offensive player than Ordonez now.

I happen to agree with you, however, that Pudge's defense cannot be ignored when analyzing the imapct of that acquisition. He's awesome. And his history with both the Marlins and the Tigers shows he's very adept at handling young pitchers.

I agree his defense cannot be ignored, but the Marlins young pitching has done quite well without him, I think the Tigers pitchers would be too. Maybe not as good, but still very good. I also don't recall the Rangers pitching excelling often during Pudge's longe tenure there.

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