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Ken Rosenthal's take on where Soriono will go?!?!

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QUICK! Somebody call the Warehouse and let them know! Go figure...for the last decade or so we've been almost entirely inept at both!

We've been at least as good as the Tigers in regards to major free agents.

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Originally Posted by Boca Bird

Wow, so when someone calls something in advance and it happens, it still doesn't make sense or have merit. Even I.S. ackwoledged me being right in that thread. HE even offered me a cookie

I didn't see this before because I have you on ignore. You know, for the good of the rest of the board.

I never said you were right about Soriano, or about Ordonez. They could have gotten the same production for much less money, and that's not a business model that we should emulate.

They won the AL pennant, but that doesn't mean we should give Soriano a ridiculous contract and expect that we'll do the same.

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I agree his defense cannot be ignored, but the Marlins young pitching has done quite well without him, I think the Tigers pitchers would be too. Maybe not as good, but still very good. I also don't recall the Rangers pitching excelling often during Pudge's longe tenure there.

Here is what I have noticed with Pudge ever since he was on the Marlins. Not only does he throw out a lot of runners, but he intimidates them from running or even taking a big lead. That is a huge boon to a pitcher. Suddenly it's harder for a runner to score from 2B on a single, or from 1B on a double, because they weren't far off the bag when the play started. Dave Campbell pointed this out when I was listening to a Marlins-Cubs game on the radio, after some runner failed to score from 2nd on a single. I've noticed it ever since.

It's true the Rangers' pitching never really thrived while Pudge was there, but it hasn't since then, either.

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Here is what I have noticed with Pudge ever since he was on the Marlins. Not only does he throw out a lot of runners, but he intimidates them from running or even taking a big lead. That is a huge boon to a pitcher. Suddenly it's harder for a runner to score from 2B on a single, or from 1B on a double, because they weren't far off the bag when the play started. Dave Campbell pointed this out when I was listening to a Marlins-Cubs game on the radio, after some runner failed to score from 2nd on a single. I've noticed it ever since.

It's true the Rangers' pitching never really thrived while Pudge was there, but it hasn't since then, either.

I agree that it definately helps, but how much? I don't think there would be that much difference between IRod and Ramon who is pretty good at slowing down a running game. What I do know is that the Marlins pitching just as good the year after IRod as it was w/IRod.

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I agree his defense cannot be ignored, but the Marlins young pitching has done quite well without him,

Really ? What does that even mean? I guess WS appearances, gold gloves, or comments from teamates have no sway when it comes to acknowledging a players performance. Just OBP, right :rolleyes:

Who has done "quite well" without him? BTW, define "quite well". So, if I were to show that statistically, they've regressed,it will be attibuted to pitching in the AL or that they've gotten older, or some other extraneous variable. What about their pre-Pudge performance ? Nonetheless, I guess its just a coincidence that Pudge has now guided two different young pitching staffs to the promised land in two different leauges. Anyway, how do you know that they didn't learn from Pudge,either? I mean are we comparing the Marlin young pitching to pre-pudge or post- pudge or both ?

The 2003 marlins staff was

Pavano - Pre -Pudge- He was 9 gms under .500 with an era over 4.55 With Pudge- 12-13 4.30 1.26 Post pudge- He's certainly hasn't done "quite well" since

Willis- Rookie yr with Pudge 14-6 3.30 1.28 and only had a better post-pudge year in 05

Beckett Pre-Pudge -17 career Dec's. With Pudge 9-8 3.04 1.28 WS MVP Post Pudge-has been solid. I don't know if he's been WS MVP solid, though

Redman- Pre-Pudge - 8 gms under .500 with an era in the 5's. With Pudge 14-9 3.59 1.22 Post Pudge-you can't be serious just as bad

Penny- has done about the same post and pre-Pudge that is over .500 with a mid 4ish era

So basically, you have a core of young guys who learned how to pitch under Pudge, but you seem to be saying that they would've done the same no matter who the Catcher was, correct ? A 1st ballot HOFer has no impact on a young pitching staff ? The only pattern I really see is the imarked mprovement of some guys under Pudge's tutleage. No one has gone on to do better without him really. SOme guys turned the corner only while they had Pudge as a C. Its also Strange how some guys who were struggling turned it around suddenly after Pudge was their battery mate,as well.

I think the Tigers pitchers would be too. Maybe not as good, but still very good. I also don't recall the Rangers pitching excelling often during Pudge's longe tenure there.

You think the Tigers would be, yet the Tigers pitchers themselves don't. Hmm, I'll go with what the players think about it.

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I agree that it definately helps, but how much? I don't think there would be that much difference between IRod and Ramon who is pretty good at slowing down a running game. What I do know is that the Marlins pitching just as good the year after IRod as it was w/IRod.

Ramon is very good at slowing the running game, but he's not in Pudge's league.

Ramon 2006: 1094 innings, 55 SB, 42 CS (43.3 CS%)

Pudge 2006: 1054 innings, 25 SB, 26 CS (51.0 CS%)

Look how few guys even tried to run on Pudge.

You are right that the Marlins pitching was very good in 2003 after Pudge left.

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A 1st ballot HOFer has no impact on a young pitching staff ?

I don't know -- if Mike Piazza was catching a young pitching staff, would it help them that he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

Obviously, the fact that Pudge is one of the best defensive catchers who ever lived helps his pitchers quite a lot. If you can separate out his defense, the question of whether he is an above average handler of young pitchers is open to debate and not easily susceptible to empirical testing. I happen to agree with you on the issue, but it is by no means something that can easily be proved/disproved.

Was the White Sox pitching last year great because of A.J. Pierzynski's brilliant handling of pitchers? The team's ERA dropped by 1.30 runs/game after he arrived. So what happened this year -- did he forget how to do it?

Is it not true that the Oriole brass felt that Javy Lopez was a better handler of pitchers than Pudge, and that's one reason why they considered the two to be equal despite Pudge's better defensive stats?

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I don't know -- if Mike Piazza was catching a young pitching staff, would it help them that he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

OF course not and you have to know that's not what I meant. IRod is a first ballot HOF equally for the 12 GG's and counting as his stick and arm. etc,etc

Obviously, the fact that Pudge is one of the best defensive catchers who ever lived helps his pitchers quite a lot. If you can separate out his defense, the question of whether he is an above average handler of young pitchers is open to debate and not easily susceptible to empirical testing. I happen to agree with you on the issue, but it is by no means something that can easily be proved/disproved.

Was the White Sox pitching last year great because of A.J. Pierzynski's brilliant handling of pitchers? The team's ERA dropped by 1.30 runs/game after he arrived. So what happened this year -- did he forget how to do it?

Is it not true that the Oriole brass felt that Javy Lopez was a better handler of pitchers than Pudge, and that's one reason why they considered the two to be equal despite Pudge's better defensive stats?

I do remember that. Chalk another one up to our "braintrust."

Yet one would have to wonder why that the best pitcher on that staff would rather pitch to BillyJoe Weewah from Hodunk CC than Javy

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Really ? What does that even mean? I guess WS appearances, gold gloves, or comments from teamates have no sway when it comes to acknowledging a players performance. Just OBP, right :rolleyes:

Who has done "quite well" without him? BTW, define "quite well".

2003 Marlins staff w/IRod - 10th in the league - 4.03 ERA

2004 Marlins staff w/o IRod - 9th in the league - 4.10 ERA

So, if I were to show that statistically, they've regressed,it will be attibuted to pitching in the AL or that they've gotten older, or some other extraneous variable. What about their pre-Pudge performance ? Nonetheless, I guess its just a coincidence that Pudge has now guided two different young pitching staffs to the promised land in two different leauges. Anyway, how do you know that they didn't learn from Pudge,either? I mean are we comparing the Marlin young pitching to pre-pudge or post- pudge or both ?

You think the Tigers would be, yet the Tigers pitchers themselves don't. Hmm, I'll go with what the players think about it.

By this logic, we are better off w/Ramon Hernandez. It can't be the talent level of the pitchers, it has to be his inspired tutelage that guided young pitching staffs in both leagues to a combined 4 division titles and a wild card birth during his 6 year career.

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Early in Pudge's career he actually had a reputation of being BAD at handling pitchers. Scouts said he called to many FBs in order to help him shut down other teams running against him. Those comments have since diminished so he may have matured to the point that he realizes he can throw alot of runners out regardless of the pitch.

Question for Boca this off season the Tigers likely are trading Bonderman for something. They hope to get something good , but also cheap in exchange for him. Why is that?

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]Your putting so many words in my mouth it's not even funny. I never said half the stuff you're claiming I did[/b]. Of course the FA's they signed have helped them, although not as much as you would expect given the investment. They could have easily gotten just as good or better help while spending less money and committing less years to free agents. And their free agents are far from being the key to their success and may hinder their ability to keep their own or add other top free agents.

I've mentioned this same argument(comparing what the Tigers did to what the O's did) before, so I'm not sure how I'm changing it. And you still haven't responded to it. We did what they did in terms of free agency, and probably better. If you want us to emulate the Tigers, well we've already done the free agency step, we just need our young pitching to step it up a lot and some other guys to step it up. But again, I want to the O's to add more, to spend money, just not for Soriano if he gets what I expect him to get.

Am I ?

Here you say Thames should be starting over Mags http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=714494&postcount=110

Here you say Mags has nothing to do with their success

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=714510&postcount=119

Mags still has "nothing" to do with the Tigers success

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=714513&postcount=122

Here's the old Thames is better

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=714514&postcount=123

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2003 Marlins staff w/IRod - 10th in the league - 4.03 ERA

2004 Marlins staff w/o IRod - 9th in the league - 4.10 ERA

2003 Marlins staff w/IRod 91-71 World Series victory over the Stankees

2004 Marlins staff without Irod 83-79 Jack Squat

Forgot Gesch, you don't care about WINS :rolleyes:

By this logic, we are better off w/Ramon Hernandez. It can't be the talent level of the pitchers, it has to be his inspired tutelage that guided young pitching staffs in both leagues to a combined 4 division titles and a wild card birth during his 6 year career.

No. You need talent, but the greatest defensive Catcher ever to play the game can only help your staff. I've never even mentioned Ramon Hernandez. Poor Gesch, he almost made it through an entire day without a strawman fallacy:(

Now Gesch, you need to find the closest Tireless Rebutters Anonymous and now Strawman Fallacy Anonymous meetings as fast as you can

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Early in Pudge's career he actually had a reputation of being BAD at handling pitchers. Scouts said he called to many FBs in order to help him shut down other teams running against him. Those comments have since diminished so he may have matured to the point that he realizes he can throw alot of runners out regardless of the pitch.

Question for Boca this off season the Tigers likely are trading Bonderman for something. They hope to get something good , but also cheap in exchange for him. Why is that?

Actually, Bonderman was rumored to be dealt for Teixeira, who has a salary approx. 4 times Bonderman's.

The Tigers will only deal him if they can't sign him to a long-term deal. That is their first choice.

Tigers aren't in cost cutting mode. They will increase payroll this year.

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Actually, Bonderman was rumored to be dealt for Teixeira, who has a salary approx. 4 times Bonderman's.

The Tigers will only deal him if they can't sign him to a long-term deal. That is their first choice.

Tigers aren't in cost cutting mode. They will increase payroll this year.

Rumor has it that they'll be players for Soriano as well.

I guess a successful franchise that wins actually generates more revenue allowing them to re-invest more money into the team

Making money is just as good as saving it. Who knew ? :eek:

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Is it not true that the Oriole brass felt that Javy Lopez was a better handler of pitchers than Pudge, and that's one reason why they considered the two to be equal despite Pudge's better defensive stats?

I don't believe it's true. There were rumors about Pudge not handling pitchers well but there were even more rumors about Javy not handling pitchers well. It was strictly about dollars. The O's had a contract in mind and the first one of Lopez or Rodriguez to accept it was going to be our catcher. If they considred them equal it's because Javy was coming off of a monster offensive year and Pudge had some injury concerns.

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