Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
caljr

Ken Rosenthal's take on where Soriono will go?!?!

Recommended Posts

No. You need talent, but the greatest defensive Catcher ever to play the game can only help your staff. I've never even mentioned Ramon Hernandez.

The IRod lovefest began after it was pointed out that Tejada/Hernandez > Ordonez/IRod.

And by using your flawed logic about IRod applied to Hernandez = advantage Hernandez. The evidence being how superb pitching staff's under Hernandez guidance have performed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The IRod lovefest began after it was pointed out that Tejada/Hernandez > Ordonez/IRod.

Wrong again. I've always coveted Irod, every time he was a free agent. I even had a heated argument with one of my best friends when they signed Javy

And by using your flawed logic about IRod applied to Hernandez = advantage Hernandez. The evidence being how superb pitching staff's under Hernandez guidance have performed.

I can't believe that someone who constantly engages in strawman fallacies has the audacity to call someone else's logic flawed, especially given that their so-called "logic" is a provable fallacy.

Anyway what two teams has Ramon guided to the World Series ? I must've missed that. Is this another one of your ignore reality for the sake of hypothetical fantasies?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually, Bonderman was rumored to be dealt for Teixeira, who has a salary approx. 4 times Bonderman's.

The Tigers will only deal him if they can't sign him to a long-term deal. That is their first choice.

Tigers aren't in cost cutting mode. They will increase payroll this year.

You are correct if you use current pay levels, but 2 years from now barring injury Bonderman will make more than Tex. The Tigers can't/Won't pay him the 18MM + he is going to get. It can be argued the Mag's contract plays into that determination. I was simply pointing out to Boca that signing a superstar (or one paid like one) level player effects the decisions of a club for years to come. When we had the previous thread I stated to him that there should be a price that the O's are willing to pay for Soriano i would probably pay him in the 5/85, 6/95 range but there is also a point where the only smart thing to do is walk away. Boca seems to suggest that we should pay whatever it takes and if you don't agree with him your a fool. Soriano is a very good flawed player, almost all players are flawed so he is worth going after it is simply a matter of what it cost realitive to what he brings to the club. Thinking he brings what he did this year over the entire length of his contract would be unwise but he would in my opinion bring alot and for the numbers I stated above or less I would sign him if it was up to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wrong again. I've always coveted Irod, every time he was a free agent. I even had a heated argument with one of my best friends when they signed Javy

I'm not saying you weren't an IRod guy in the past. Strictly talking about the posts in this thread.

I can't believe that someone who constantly engages in strawman fallacies has the audacity to call someone else's logic flawed, especially given that their so-called "logic" is a provable fallacy.

If the shoe fits...

Anyway what two teams has Ramon guided to the World Series ? I must've missed that. Is this another one of your ignore reality for the sake of hypothetical fantasies?

Anything can happen in a short series; over the long haul of the season when it comes to getting his teams to the post season Ramon Hernandez has been more successful. 3 AL division titles, 1 NL division title and a wild card appearance over the past 7 years. I can't think of another catcher w/that kind of track record in recent years other than Posada who benefits from the monster payroll disparity. Considering the difference between Hernandez and IRod offensively at this point in their careers, the Orioles are in better shape at catcher than the Tigers are. Big advantage for the O's in the Tejada/Hernandez > Ordonez/IRod equation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are correct if you use current pay levels, but 2 years from now barring injury Bonderman will make more than Tex. The Tigers can't/Won't pay him the 18MM + he is going to get. It can be argued the Mag's contract plays into that determination. .

It is debatable whether or not Bonderman will make more than Teixeira.

How do you know that they "can't" and they "won't" pay Bonderman ?

Everything I have read leads me to believe that they want to sign him long term and they are not in cost cutting mode. They are willing to increase payroll to WIN. Especially after this last season. They want to build on their success, not stop it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not saying you weren't an IRod guy in the past. Strictly talking about the posts in this thread.

If the shoe fits...

Anything can happen in a short series; over the long haul of the season when it comes to getting his teams to the post season Ramon Hernandez has been more successful. 3 AL division titles, 1 NL division title and a wild card appearance over the past 7 years. I can't think of another catcher w/that kind of track record in recent years other than Posada who benefits from the monster payroll disparity. Considering the difference between Hernandez and IRod offensively at this point in their careers, the Orioles are in better shape at catcher than the Tigers are. Big advantage for the O's in the Tejada/Hernandez > Ordonez/IRod equation.

Give it a rest. This Ordonez/IROD vs Tejada/Hernandez argument is downright silly, imo.

The TIgers are a better organization than the Orioles because of:

- Ownership who hires good people and delegates authority to them

- Smart GM who is allowed to use his talent to make decisions

- Many great personnel moves by GM/Scouting dept from drafting (Verlander) FA (IROD, Magglio), and trades (Polanco, Casey)

- Great field manager who knows the game and was allowed to hire his own people

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The TIgers are a better organization than the Orioles because of:

- Ownership who hires good people and delegates authority to them

- Smart GM who is allowed to use his talent to make decisions

- Many great personnel moves by GM/Scouting dept from drafting (Verlander) FA (IROD, Magglio), and trades (Polanco, Casey)

- Great field manager who knows the game and was allowed to hire his own people

Couldn't agree more. The O's have played the FA game just as well if not better than Detroit but have fallen short in all the other areas you mention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not saying you weren't an IRod guy in the past. Strictly talking about the posts in this thread.

If the shoe fits...

You're right the shoe does fit. You constantly attempt strawman fallacies. The problem is that if a person recognizes them as such, they lose their potential for (dishonest) effectiveness

Anything can happen in a short series; over the long haul of the season when it comes to getting his teams to the post season Ramon Hernandez has been more successful. 3 AL division titles, 1 NL division title and a wild card appearance over the past 7 years. I can't think of another catcher w/that kind of track record in recent years other than Posada who benefits from the monster payroll disparity. Considering the difference between Hernandez and IRod offensively at this point in their careers, the Orioles are in better shape at catcher than the Tigers are.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Excuses, excuses, excuses. Still hate the win column, huh. Still ignoring reality for the hypothetical. AS for me, I'll take Pudge's World Series, 12 GG's, defense, shut down of the running game, 1st ballot HOF, etc,etc.

Big advantage for the O's in the Tejada/Hernandez > Ordonez/IRod equation.

Who gives a flying frick how you judge things? Detroit is respectable and the O's aren't. Ask anyone in baseball who's the better franchise. Better yet, Ask Tejada or Ramon who they wish they were playing for this season or the upcoming season.

Ya think Tejada is sorry he didn't take the 66 mil from the Tigers?

Look! overpaying even works out for the Orioles. I love it when you prove my points for me :eek:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How do you know that they "can't" and they "won't" pay Bonderman ?

Because if they thought they could or would there would be no talk of trading him. Young very good pitchers are harder to come by than very good soon to be FA 1B.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Because if they thought they could or would there would be no talk of trading him. Young very good pitchers are harder to come by than very good soon to be FA 1B.

Houston talked about trading Oswalt and wound up signing him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Really ? What does that even mean? I guess WS appearances, gold gloves, or comments from teamates have no sway when it comes to acknowledging a players performance. Just OBP, right :rolleyes:

Who has done "quite well" without him? BTW, define "quite well". So, if I were to show that statistically, they've regressed,it will be attibuted to pitching in the AL or that they've gotten older, or some other extraneous variable. What about their pre-Pudge performance ? Nonetheless, I guess its just a coincidence that Pudge has now guided two different young pitching staffs to the promised land in two different leauges. Anyway, how do you know that they didn't learn from Pudge,either? I mean are we comparing the Marlin young pitching to pre-pudge or post- pudge or both ?

The 2003 marlins staff was

Pavano - Pre -Pudge- He was 9 gms under .500 with an era over 4.55 With Pudge- 12-13 4.30 1.26 Post pudge- He's certainly hasn't done "quite well" since

Willis- Rookie yr with Pudge 14-6 3.30 1.28 and only had a better post-pudge year in 05

Beckett Pre-Pudge -17 career Dec's. With Pudge 9-8 3.04 1.28 WS MVP Post Pudge-has been solid. I don't know if he's been WS MVP solid, though

Redman- Pre-Pudge - 8 gms under .500 with an era in the 5's. With Pudge 14-9 3.59 1.22 Post Pudge-you can't be serious just as bad

Penny- has done about the same post and pre-Pudge that is over .500 with a mid 4ish era

So basically, you have a core of young guys who learned how to pitch under Pudge, but you seem to be saying that they would've done the same no matter who the Catcher was, correct ? A 1st ballot HOFer has no impact on a young pitching staff ? The only pattern I really see is the imarked mprovement of some guys under Pudge's tutleage. No one has gone on to do better without him really. SOme guys turned the corner only while they had Pudge as a C. Its also Strange how some guys who were struggling turned it around suddenly after Pudge was their battery mate,as well.

You think the Tigers would be, yet the Tigers pitchers themselves don't. Hmm, I'll go with what the players think about it.

I'm saying the pitchers on the Marlins have done well after Pudge left. And I'm talking about their stats which are most important, with players comments usually being least important since they are usually more BS then real. Refer to geshinger's post on the topic.

And please stop putting words in my mouth! I never said Pudge had no effect on the pitching staff! I'd take Ramon over Pudge, that's all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am I ?

Here you say Thames should be starting over Mags http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=714494&postcount=110

Here you say Mags has nothing to do with their success

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=714510&postcount=119

Mags still has "nothing" to do with the Tigers success

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=714513&postcount=122

Here's the old Thames is better

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=714514&postcount=123

Ummm...YES YOU ARE! Are you able to comprehend what you read? I did not say Mags has nothing to do with their success in either quote you said I did.

And Thames was playing better than Maggs at the time, there is no debating that. I will give Maggs credit since then however, as he stepped it up late in the year. So I will admit that with his strong finish, he was pretty helpful to the Tigers, but they still could have easily gotten better production while spending less and the pitching is by far the biggest reason for their success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess David Eckstein is better than Tejada since he's won a couple WS titles in the past 4 years. Jeff Weaver and Suppan must be better than Roy Halladay and Johan Santana. We should build the team around Millar and Conine since they have rings. I guess Ted Williams and Barry Bonds just weren't good players. End rant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I guess David Eckstein is better than Tejada since he's won a couple WS titles in the past 4 years.

Clearly he isn't. However, Eckstein is proof that you can build a World Series contender without a top-hitting SS. So I guess his success should inspire the trade Miggy crowd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

Orioles Information


Orioles News and Information

Daily Organizational Boxscores
News

Tony's Takes

Orioles Roster Resource

Orioles Prospect Information

2020 Top 30 Prospects List

Prospect Scouting Reports

Statistics

2020 Orioles Stats

2019 Orioles Minor League Stats

Baseball Savant Stats






  • Posts

    • I have (had) an old stapler. I don't use it much, maybe once a month at most. But I like to have one around. This old girl was getting worse and worse... I tried to use it the other day and it wouldn't even push a staple thru 2 sheets of paper. So it finally pissed me off enough that I ordered a new one from Amazon. You know what I bought OF COURSE.                     wait for it...                    
    • Interesting nugget... I googled Grand Ole Opry to make sure I spelled it right (Thought there was an apostrophe in there somewhere but no...) Anyways... First link I trusted was Wiki. In the first paragraph it said the GOO was started in 1925! KDKA started in late 1920 (Pres. Harding election results.) GOO was only 4+ years after that! I would have guessed mid 30's maybe but 1925... that's REALLY in radio's infancy!   In 1925 I would guess there were MAYBE a couple hundred radios TOTAL within a 50 mile radius of Nashville. Well before the TVA, most of the region didn't even have electricity.
    • Something on the Front Page reminded me of this 1956 joint. There's a couple versions of this on youboob, just snagged a different one from 1965 at the Grand Ole Opry. I LOVE the fiddle player just STYLIN' for the camera. 😛    
    • While Lamar did play better than RG3, keep in mind the league context.  He had a 121 Rating+ (basically OPS+ for passer rating, adjusted for that season's averages. Over 100 is good, less is bad.)  Lamar's 2019 was 128.  So Lamar is still better, but that was RG3 as a rookie.  Who knows how he would have done if he didn't get hurt/if he was drafted by an org not owned by Dan Snyder.   That said, I don't think it's reasonable to use RG3's injury problems as a reason not to sign Lamar long term.  I think that they were specific to RG3 and the team he played for. (I think the Football Team horribly mismanaged him.)   In general running QBs havent had high injury risk, any more than regular QBs.  Look at Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, Russell Wilson, Newton, Culpeper, VIck.  All have been fairly durable, certainly no bigger an injury risk than any other QB.  There is some risk that some injuries are going to be more damaging to Lamar's career because of his reliance on his athleticism, but given that many running QBs have stayed productive into their 30s I think this risk is relatively low. I don't think Vick is a great comp because he didn't really figure out how to be a passer until after he came back from his jail sentence.  Vick's best Rating+ pre-jail/suspension is 104, which is worse than Lamar's 2020.  And that's taking 6 Vick seasons compared to 3 Lamar seasons. I think Deshaun Watson checks off more boxes as a good comp, because of the recency of his contract, his performance, his playoff (lack of) success, and his playing style. If we're being realistic, Lamar has no real comparables.  There isn't a QB in NFL history that generates as much true dual-threat value as Lamar.  I think this actually is a problem when trying to figure out how much to pay him.  He's got the intangibles, sure (at least when it comes to regular season play) but with no real comps, it's kind of impossible to project his development/future performance. We know that the Ravens don't really throw the ball much, but in 2019 they were pretty damn efficient at it, and in 2020 they were middle-of-the-pack.  But when you can run the ball for 6-10 yards a carry, it kind of eliminates the need to throw the ball.  Imagine how good you'd have to be throwing the ball to make it a better proposition than running in most game situations.  And we also don't know how much his running ability affects his passing game.  And there's no way to know that until he can't run anymore.  Which isn't happening for 4-5 years barring injury. Even if it's risky, I think you really have no choice but to pay him, especially if you can get a contract with an out after his age-28 or 29 season.  It's easy to point to our mistake with thinking Flacco was worth an extension, but that's no reason to deny Lamar his extension, especially given that he's already shown the ability to singlehandedly carry us into the playoffs, even if he has struggled once there.  Flacco never carried this team in the regular season the way Lamar does.  In fact it was our multiple HOFers on the other side of the ball that carried Flacco into the postseason so he could be the hero for a couple games.  Credit to him for stepping up in January, but someone has to get us there, and we don't have anyone else who can do that.  The chance that we find someone in the draft that can do that is not that great.  Certainly lower than the chance that Jackson is going to take us to the SB.  I guess we could talk swapping him for someone like Deshaun Watson, but I just don't know how plausible that really is.
    • Lol, you gotta wait until spring training for those gems.
    • Well, now we know why Jim Hunter became redundant.
    • Brob was one of those let go.  I will miss him!  But he  remains as an "ambassador" as does Demper.  
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...