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O's deciding what picthers they want for Roberts?

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If the Orioles can get possibly 2 future starting pitchers don't you think AM makes the deal.I personally like Marshall in his early career the kid knows how to pitch if you have a good defensive team he will win in the Mlb.By the way the Rangers asked for Marshall not Murton in the Byrd deal and then Hendry asked for Cj Wilson so thats why that deal didn't get done.Gallegher I think would be a great pick up for the Orioles he throws in the mid 90s and is still very young and gets better each year.

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FWIW, I am in the keep Roberts camp. I think he would be inclined to resign.

I think the only way he stays is if none of the contenders need him. He'll stay here over over another rebuilding team.......but us vs. a contender?

No chance.

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If the Orioles can get possibly 2 future starting pitchers don't you think AM makes the deal.I personally like Marshall in his early career the kid knows how to pitch if you have a good defensive team he will win in the Mlb.By the way the Rangers asked for Marshall not Murton in the Byrd deal and then Hendry asked for Cj Wilson so thats why that deal didn't get done.Gallegher I think would be a great pick up for the Orioles he throws in the mid 90s and is still very young and gets better each year.

Hendry rejected Byd for Marshall?

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Look, man, I haven't attacked you personally at all. I'm merely saying why don't you just go back to your board. You clearly don't think most of us have got good sense. This board is here to discuss the Orioles. It isn't here to get lectured about how ridiculous our expectations are for Roberts. It made sense to discuss this potential trade a few times, but all these things turn into these days are lectures. I let it go the first five times you acted like you were "teaching" us all something, but I'm tired of it. However, I haven't gotten personal and called you names. I'm merely saying that your time here appears to be at an end to me unless you want to discuss the relative merits of Liz vs Olson as a starter this year. No harm, no foul. Have a good day. Good luck to the Cubs.

You're imagining things. First, what board would you like me to "go back to?" Secondly, where have I lectured anyone about expectations? Third, where are the times I was teaching anyone about the Orioles? Fourth, where did I personally attack anyone? This is total nonsense. Should I ignore you or defend against your accusations? I'm here to discuss baseball and not prattle bickering. I've also noticed that it seems the only posts that get responses are those with teeth. You didn't respond at all until I was attacked and responded - then you used that as some sort of negative mark. Christ, give the vendetta up already.

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Guys and gals,

These discussions are such a waste of time. The problem for both sides is that the players being offered have less value to the team getting them than the team sending them away.

Roberts doesn't mean a lot to you guys as an upgrade. He means more than many of you will acknowledge simply because DeRosa can fill in elsewhere and up the production behind the starters. However, Roberts is still just a marginal improvement for you guys. A "would be nice", not a necessity.

The same is true of the guys you're offering to us.

Murton wouldn't start for us today. He would probably get 300ish at bats behind our starters and be an insurance policy in case of injury. He becomes completely redundant if Reimold can stay healthy so he could be of no value to us by July. That doesn't mean Murton doesn't have value. He does. If we hadn't traded for Scott, Murton would have a lot of value to us.

Gallagher likewise has value, but we have a ton of #3ish type starters ready now or about to be ready so he doesn't fill a hole UNLESS we have a really high attrition rate. What we need (like most teams) are #1/#2 starter types. Of course, if Gallagher was that good, he would be much more valuable so he wouldn't be as easy to give up for the Cubs.

Cedeno is at a position we need, but he is such a coin flip at this point that it is really tough to get excited about him. Is he the kick butt AAA player or the guy who has been very overmatched in over a year's worth of at bats at the major league level? Who knows, but we can't bank on him at all so he doesn't constitute much value in a trade for us, only potential value with a big question mark....

It goes on and on. What we really need are middle infielders, young first basemen, and top of the rotation starters. What you really need is a good SS, to know if Pie can do it in center, and better starting pitching depth after your first three (Zambrano, Hill, Lilly). I personally think you need Gallagher more than we need him. Unfortunately, your deep on overpriced mediocre veteran starters with no place to send them. We just don't match up very well. It isn't anyone's fault, but we've beaten this freaking horse to death and back for over two months. It isn't going to happen unless one side caves. AM isn't going to cave. I don't think you believe Hendry is going to cave (I agree BTW). We should all just move on.

Good luck to the Cubs.....

I disagree with this. I don't think the Cubs or O's value Murton, Cedeno and Gallagher that highly. The both value BRob but CHC doesn't want to give up much because he's not a huge upgrade.

It seems to me, that if the Cubs guys are as avertised, the Cubs should keep Cedeno, Gallagher and Pie, give us some combo of Patterson, Colvin, Veal and Ceda. Why trade us a 'valued' shortstop outfielder and pitcher if you need a shortstop, outfielder and pitcher.

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If the Orioles can get possibly 2 future starting pitchers don't you think AM makes the deal.I personally like Marshall in his early career the kid knows how to pitch if you have a good defensive team he will win in the Mlb.By the way the Rangers asked for Marshall not Murton in the Byrd deal and then Hendry asked for Cj Wilson so thats why that deal didn't get done.Gallegher I think would be a great pick up for the Orioles he throws in the mid 90s and is still very young and gets better each year.

No offense but the Orioles probably have 10 young pitchers with more upside than MArshall in their system. Agree Gallagher would be a nice return for Roberts. That is the only piece so far that the Orioles could really use. Cedeno is not a long term answer and the Orioles could have Uribe for Payton today. Murton is a nice player but not one that the Orioles really have use for righr now. This just does not look like a good match unless the Orioles settle for less or the Cubs over pay.

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I'd like someone to complete this statement for me.

"There will be better offers for Roberts. Just look at what (fill in team) got in return for (fill in Roberts-caliber player)."

I haven't seen even one example be offered in support of the common argument that Roberts is, or will ever be, worth more than the Cubs packages being bandied about now.

I've seen lots of examples that refute the notion, however: Edgar Renteria from this year; Luis Castillo from a couple years ago; the recent historical record of trade deadline deals that Rob H pulled together.

Someone convince me there's any semblance of evidence to back the "better offers will come" theory.

Try this one. Leadoff man Kenny Lofton.

March 25, 1997: Traded by the Cleveland Indians with Alan Embree to the Atlanta Braves for Marquis Grissom and David Justice.

Cleveland traded 29 year old Lofton with a reliever Embree(27), who had never had a year with an ERA under a 5.00 ERA in the majors, to Atlanta. Lofton spent one year in Altanta, went free agent and signed back with Cleveland.

Meanwhile, over the next 3 1/2 years Justice (31) hit 100 homers for Cleveland. Justice was 5th in the MVP award in 1997, was an All-Star and won the Silver Slugger Award. He also finished 13th in the MVP voting in 2000when he hit 41 HRs and was traded to the Yankees for Jake Westbrook.

Also included in the trade was Grissom (30) who was 13th in the MVP voting in 1996 which shows his value at the time of the trade. He did leave Cleveland after one year but was replaced by Lofton when the Indians resigned him.

Embree pitched a year and one half of middle relief for Atlanta and was traded for Russ Springer.

It is hard to say that Atlanta was run by a bunch of jerks because they were in the middle of their 13 division titles run.

I would say that Cleveland got more for Lofton in Justice and one year of Grissom with the chance to re-sign him if they wanted, then the Cubs are offering for Roberts.

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I don't think you are a liar, just mistaken. Athletes don't generally (I love that word) lose 25 pounds and get stronger, but heck I'll play along and assume he didn't lose any strength. The FACT is that Gallagher pitched mostly in relief in the AFL. I'd guess that he didn't have any outings of more than 5 IP. Probably not any of more than 3 IP but I didn't check. I did see 2 starts and 6 relief appearances. It's quite common for a starting pitcher's velocity to spike a few mph when switched to a relief role. If Gallagher was throwing harder in the AFL then it's probably that it was because of the less demanding workload, not because of some miraculous weight loss/velocity gain theory. Furthermore, if Gallagher really did miraculously gaine 3-4 mph on his fastball, do you think the Cubs would be parting with him in a package for Roberts? Honesty is a virtue.

Just to set the record straight Sean was on a meal program and still is called sun fare. This program is only available on the West Coast and set meals IAW the players needs. As for your statement about losing strength never happened and is in the best shape he has ever been in. As for velocity increase I can also attest to this as his last bullpen he threw before reporting to camp he was mid-90's. I would also like to add that Sean has been the most sought after prospect in the Cubs farm system this offseason. He is also well known by your front office as most of your folks were in the Cubs system when Sean was drafted. It is no secret that the Cubs would love to have Roberts and I would have to say that any deal would include Sean...

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Try this one. Leadoff man Kenny Lofton.

March 25, 1997: Traded by the Cleveland Indians with Alan Embree to the Atlanta Braves for Marquis Grissom and David Justice.

You had to mention Grissom, didn't you? :mad:;)

Now the rest of my evening will be ruined as I relive the horror of the 1997 ALCS.

If you weren't usually one of my favorite posters, I'd negative rep you for the headache (heartache). :D

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To be honest, I agree with your take. It is kind of hard to believe the Cubs believe Murton is valuable when they just signed Fukudome and Soriano the last two years. It is difficult to believe that they have any faith in Cedeno when they're going to start Theriot at SS, who isn't very good at his best, and trade Cedeno.

However, I'm tired of arguing about the value of these guys with the Cubs' guys so I was trying to make a "no harm, no foul" post. They are welcome to believe what they want. We're not going to sway them. They aren't going to sway us. There is no "middle ground" to reach here IMHO so we should all just go back to the rest of our lives.

The argument about Murton goes something like "Soriano has to play left and Murton can't play right or center." I don't know what the argument against Cedeno is.

Anyway, yes I could see that you were trying to get us to move on. We just need some actual games to focus on. Has MASN released the ST sched yet (seriously)?

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Does anyone really think Roberts wants to play on a rebuilding team.He has said he doesn't want to be the last one standing.Thats why AM has his scouts in Cubs camp to see what young pitcher they would like.Everyone can speculate whats been offered but no one really knows.Roberts has said all the right things but he also recently said The Cubs would be a great place to play.Roberts is such a good person and I think thats why Am would like to give him a chance to contend.Thats why Am wants to stock pile pitching he knows 7 out ten probably wont pan out.By the way Marlon Byrd is really not all that good.

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In case anybody wants a summary, this is the same endless repeat that's been going on forever, in which Cubs fans do the following sequence:

  • 1. Let's talk about a BRob trade, OK?
  • 2. BRob ain't worth much, our Cubbies shouldn't give up much, we don't need him, we're fine without him. You guys should take the marginal guys we don't really want and give us BRob in return, or else no deal. You prolly shouldn't do that, but that's the only way the Cubs should make a deal. So, take it or leave it. And if you think BRob is worth more than that, you're nuts.
  • 3. No deal, you say? You don't want to trade BRob to us for if-fy marginal guys who we're not counting on? Fine, we don't need him anyway.
  • 4. (Go back to Step 1 and start over.)

Of course, for this endless sequence to work, O's fans have to be very serious and go along, fighting the good fight by repeating their own counter-arguments again, and again, and again, and again. It is endless and mindless. Along the way, various people get indignant and insulted, just like always.

Here's my question: When was the last time that anybody said anything that hasn't already been repeated eleventy-seven times?

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Does anyone really think Roberts wants to play on a rebuilding team.He has said he doesn't want to be the last one standing.Thats why AM has his scouts in Cubs camp to see what young pitcher they would like.Everyone can speculate whats been offered but no one really knows.Roberts has said all the right things but he also recently said The Cubs would be a great place to play.Roberts is such a good person and I think thats why Am would like to give him a chance to contend.Thats why Am wants to stock pile pitching he knows 7 out ten probably wont pan out.By the way Marlon Byrd is really not all that good.

And the Rangers still would not trade him straight up for Murton.

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