Jump to content
SteveO

Our number one priority this offseason .....

Recommended Posts

It wasn't dumb, it was cheap.

What's the value of a second round comp pick?

I am guessing it is under 2.5 million.

Dodgers had the money to burn so they spent it.

To sell something at it's value, or more then it's value, is almost always a justifiable action.

There are an awful lot of things that seem unreasonable or even dumb if you're operating under the assumption that the Orioles could or should have a much higher payroll than Duquette is apparently allowed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are you a Nats fan?

If not let me explain.

If the Orioles get a higher fee then MASN is contractually obligated to give the Nats the same amount.

The monies from rights fees is subject to revenue sharing.

So not only would more money go to the Nationals if you got your way, more of it would get "taxed" by MLB.

And there is also the fact that the ownership is under little obligation to spend the money either way.

I think that's fine. I don't care at all about the Nats or what they do or how much revenues they have or what they spend it on. And I don't care if a somewhat higher percentage of Oriole money goes towards revenue sharing. Not if that means more potential resources are available to the GM. Do they have to spend the resources? No. But if they don't have the money they're certainly not going to spend it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Or use it to justify an reason to complain about the organization.

Is that what you think I'm doing, looking for a reason to complain? Yeah, because I have that history here. I disagree with the idea it wasn't just cutting payroll. They are cheap, but not for the reasons previously stated which made the deal dumb. I didn't like it. Wouldn't be the first time. If you like every deal then you're drinking too much damn kool-aid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How about this?

You name a Duquette move in the last season that you find indefensible and I will defend it?

Sound like a fun game?

Go!

And (as much as I've been rooting for this guy), I'd like someone to defend the Ubaldo unprecedented 4 y/50M contract. Especially when DD balked at giving Cruz and/or Markakis a 4 year deal.

Still haven't seen any defenses of this deal. I was quite leery of this deal when it was first announced. I became a fan of Ubaldo's later on because he's here, and I like his character. And he isn't going away. With that contract, he is as untradeable as he was last winter (as much as people wish that DD could get rid of him). So is there truly a defense of this deal that I don't know about?

Edited by Nevermore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Still haven't seen any defenses of this deal. I was quite leery of this deal when it was first announced. I became a fan of Ubaldo's later on because he's here, and I like his character. And he isn't going away. With that contract, he is as untradeable as he was last winter (as much as people wish that DD could get rid of him). So is there truly a defense of this deal that I don't know about?

Did you read that part where I wasn't taking requests from the whole board but was talking specifically to another board member?

I did Webb because it was a bit of a challenge.

To be honest justifying a market value free agent deal for a 3 is about as hard as saying.

Despite his fluctuations in performance Ubaldo's eventual price of 4/50 was reasonable in the current market. Dan wanted to build upon the gains made in 2012-2013 and figured solidifying the staff was a good way to accomplish it. He also signed Cruz to a one year deal bolster the offense.

Now if you also want me to Cruz and Markakis then fine, if it will cause you to hush.

Anyone not exceedingly desperate to hold onto his job would be wary of signing a 33 year old, PED-tainted, DH coming off a career year to a four year contract.

Markakis had produced between MLB regular (2WAR) and replacement (0WAR) level over the last three seasons. His range in the field had appreciably deteriorated and his power was gone. He was also going to be undergoing neck surgery in the offseason. Why would you want to lock up that sort of player to a four year deal? (Btw he is at 1.5 WAR this season so he should again fall within those numbers)

Edited by Can_of_corn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not certain it can be done.

It might take such an outrageous offer to secure his services that it would fracture the framework of future deals to the extent that it would be unworkable.

He has to have some desire to stay.

You can't literally offer him a blank check.

:agree: Strictly gut feeling, but Manny is no Jones and I have a feeling he's not going to sign and extension and has no intention of being a life long Oriole. Unless its some amazing amout like you said

JMHO I think this goes the same way Mussina went.

Edited by TouchemAll

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:agree: Strictly gut feeling, but Manny is no Jones and I have a feeling he's not going to sign and extension and has no intention of being a life long Oriole.

JMHO I think this goes the same way Mussina went.

I think the favorite is the Marlins depending on what their situation is when he hits FA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did you read that part where I wasn't taking requests from the whole board but was talking specifically to another board member?
Sorry, I missed that part when you first threw out the challenge. I did see it later, but it was too late, as I had already posted. So had several others.
Despite his fluctuations in performance Ubaldo's eventual price of 4/50 was reasonable in the current market. Dan wanted to build upon the gains made in 2012-2013 and figured solidifying the staff was a good way to accomplish it. He also signed Cruz to a one year deal bolster the offense.
But DD seemed to be only looking at the last half of Ubaldo's Cleveland season. Ubaldo has fluctuated in just about all of his seasons. Did DD truly believe that a wildly fluctuating pitcher would be worth a 4 year deal? I can understand a 1 or even 2 year deal. But 4 years, especially when he refused to sign a 4th year to either Markakis or Cruz?

NOTE: it sounds weird to me to be attacking Ubaldo's deal when I've been defending him so much the past 2 seasons. :eektf: But Ijust need to tell it how I see it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, I missed that part when you first threw out the challenge. I did see it later, but it was too late, as I had already posted. So had several others. But DD seemed to be only looking at the last half of Ubaldo's Cleveland season. Ubaldo has fluctuated in just about all of his seasons. Did DD truly believe that a wildly fluctuating pitcher would be worth a 4 year deal? I can understand a 1 or even 2 year deal. But 4 years, especially when he refused to sign a 4th year to either Markakis or Cruz?

NOTE: it sounds weird to me to be attacking Ubaldo's deal when I've been defending him so much the past 2 seasons. :eektf: But Ijust need to tell it how I see it.

He also had a lot of success before he got to Cleveland.

His career numbers, averaged out, were above average when he was signed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He also had a lot of success before he got to Cleveland.

His career numbers, averaged out, were above average when he was signed.

But you can't just look at averages. You have to look at particular patterns. A guy can pitch with a 3.00 ERA will look just as average as a guy who pitches half of his seasons with a 6.00 ERA and half of his seasons with a 0.00 ERA.

You have to look at what has happened recently. And if a pitcher wildly fluctuates, then you have to look at particular numbers that may show why he is wildly fluctuating. And then ask whether a wildly fluctuating pitcher is what is needed to improve your team.

Ubaldo had a lot of success before being trade to Cleveland. And also a lot of substandard numbers. One number that hasn't been fluctuating very much has been his high ratio of BB/9IP. This should have been a red flag. It was mainly the high BB/9IP that made his 2014 season so miserable.

Look, Ubaldo isn't going anywhere. He is about as untradeable as a player can be. So we're going to have him for the next 2 years. He is basically a reclamation project. He has shown that he is willing to work hard on improving. At least the coaches got his BB/9IP down this year, and that is a good improvement. Now the coaches will have to work on other aspects of his pitching. Hopefully, after more work, he can finally succeed as a steady pitcher and help the team for the next 2 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But you can't just look at averages. You have to look at particular patterns. A guy can pitch with a 3.00 ERA will look just as average as a guy who pitches half of his seasons with a 6.00 ERA and half of his seasons with a 0.00 ERA.

You have to look at what has happened recently. And if a pitcher wildly fluctuates, then you have to look at particular numbers that may show why he is wildly fluctuating. And then ask whether a wildly fluctuating pitcher is what is needed to improve your team.

Ubaldo had a lot of success before being trade to Cleveland. And also a lot of substandard numbers. One number that hasn't been fluctuating very much has been his high ratio of BB/9IP. This should have been a red flag. It was mainly the high BB/9IP that made his 2014 season so miserable.

Look, Ubaldo isn't going anywhere. He is about as untradeable as a player can be. So we're going to have him for the next 2 years. He is basically a reclamation project. He has shown that he is willing to work hard on improving. At least the coaches got his BB/9IP down this year, and that is a good improvement. Now the coaches will have to work on other aspects of his pitching. Hopefully, after more work, he can finally succeed as a steady pitcher and help the team for the next 2 years.

Once again I am not saying I agreed with the signing, just that it was a defensible deal.

It was no more risky at the time then the Cruz or Markakis deals.

12.5 per isn't a lot of money anymore.

I also think Ubaldo is a lot more tradeable then say Sabathia. (1/25M left with 5M buyout if his shoulder holds up)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Once again I am not saying I agreed with the signing, just that it was a defensible deal.

It was no more risky at the time then the Cruz or Markakis deals.

12.5 per isn't a lot of money anymore.

I also think Ubaldo is a lot more tradeable then say Sabathia. (1/25M left with 5M buyout if his shoulder holds up)

Well, saying he is more tradeable than CC isn't really going out on a limb. Still looks like we're stuck with him at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 66 Guests (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online

Orioles Information


Orioles News and Information

Daily Organizational Boxscores
News

Tony's Takes

Orioles Roster Resource

Orioles Prospect Information

2018 End of Season Top 30 Prospects List

Prospect Scouting Reports

Statistics

2019 Orioles Stats

2019 Orioles Minor League Stats

Baseball Savant Stats






  • Posts

    • I like it after seeing it Saturday night. That was very exciting! EVERY half inning was suspenseful. Of course it could be brutally painful... but still would be edge of your seat baseball. MUCH better to be the home team. Even more so than the traditional format.
    • "Live" 11:30 replay just finished. Sweep! GO O's!!!
    • I'm finding myself really looking forward to games these days. I really like what I've seen from Ruiz, Nunez, Iglesias, and Alberto.  But Stewart looks like an automatic out to me. 
    • Fun watching him get swing and misses on that 87mph fastball. 
    • C (2014): Wieters only played 26 games in 2014.  Joseph logged 82 games, the rest split between Nick Hundley and Steve Cleveinger.  The highest OPS of that group is .625.  Wieters himself OPS 839.   C(2020):  both Severino and Sisco OPS'ing over .850 so far.   I'll call this one of a win for the 2020 Orioles. Severino/Sisco >> Joseph/Hundley/Clevenger.   1B:  Davis.   Although he did have a down year in 2014 with only a .700 OPS.  2014 Davis >>>> 2020 Davis.   However, its unclear he will get the majority of starts for the rest of the season.  But I'll count this as a win for 2014 Os regardless.  We don't know if/when Mountcastle gets called up.   2B 2014 Schoop had a terrible year, OPS .598.  Alberto the clear winner hear SS 2014 Hardy OPS 682 vs 2020 Iglesias 1316.  Clear win for 2020 3B 2014 Machado OPS 755 vs 2020 Ruiz 1112.  Win for 2020 LF 2014 David Lough OPS 694 vs 2020 DSJ 808.  DJ Stewart has more games, but I'd venture he's not going to get much more chances.  I'm gonna call this one for 2020. CF 2014 Jones OPS 780 vs Hays 300.  Win for 2014 obviously RF 2014 Markakis OPS 729 vs. Santander 734.  I'll call this one a tie. DH 2014 Cruz OPS 859 vs. Nunez 955.   I''d venture that Nunez doesn't finish better than 859, so I'll call this one a win for 2014.  Final score 2020 O's 5, 2014 Os 3, 1 tie.                
    • It is very difficult to imitate the Rays (and the As) because those two franchises move good players pre-free agent because they (mostly) have to.  To a lesser extent, these teams do the Bedard trade over and over and make that trade with popular players.  One can say, as I probably have, that we should have a hybrid model where we imitate the Rays, but also keep and sign a few more players to LTCs than the Rays would.  That would be great in theory, but over time it seems the Rays success has been related to a single-minded focus to deal players a year too early than a year too late.    This board has shown little stomach to deal our star players pre-FA over the last 10 years.  There are many examples of guys we should have traded around the beginning of their arbitration years when their trade value was highest, but our FO kept the players too long from Johnson (reliever), Wieters, Machado, Mora, Hardy, Davis and others.  Some of these guys we signed to LTCs instead of dealing at the right moment.  The Rays would have dealt each of these guys instead of waiting as long as the Os FO did. Before we start worrying about that, however, we need to build the scouting and development infrastructure of the Rays.  
    • They've been hitting well so far and it's been fun to watch.  C Wieters 1B Davis 2B Schoop 3B Machado SS Hardy LF Pearce CF Jones RF Markakis DH Cruz C Severino 1B Davis 2B Alberto 3B Ruiz SS Iglesias LF Smith Jr. CF Hays RF Santander DH Nunez Still seems like a resounding 9-0 or 8-1 for 2014 to me.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...