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Sign Bourn and Pagan and presto we have an outfield

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25 minutes ago, Moondoggie said:

A poor hitter? Since when is a guy who almost always hits over .300 and steals a bunch of bases a poor hitter? He hit between .294 and .319 for six straight seasons before suffering an oblique injury on opening day last year that plagued him all season.

Since people realized that batting average isn't a very good way to judge hitters.  We are talking about a guy that has never had an OPS+ of 100 (average) in any season.  He came close once with a 98 in 2015, which was his only season with an OPS of .700.  His lifetime OPS+ is 83 and his OPS+ last year was 49.  It just plain doesn't get much worse than that.  That would be very bad, but maybe bearable, if he were an excellent-fielding middle infielder, but as an outfielder with no arm, it is amazingly terrible.   For reference, JJ Hardy's OPS+ was 88 last season, and 92 for his career.  Revere makes Hardy look like an offensive stud.

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8 minutes ago, Dark Helmet said:

Ok. Still doesn't answer the question. Manny approached them about a new extension, and they drug their feet. 

When?  After the first knee blew out or the 2nd.   I think the O's had to see he could stay healthy and after they saw that the price was too high.  I don't blame the O's for wanting to see a healthy player before they commited to him for 10 years.

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1 minute ago, wildcard said:

When?  After the first knee blew out or the 2nd.   I think the O's had to see he could stay healthy and after they saw that the price was too high.  I don't blame the O's for wanting to see a healthy player before they commited to him for 10 years.

They could have trusted the doctors.

But the O's are too risk adverse to do something like extend a guy recovering from knee surgery.

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5 minutes ago, Number5 said:

Since people realized that batting average isn't a very good way to judge hitters.  We are talking about a guy that has never had an OPS+ of 100 (average) in any season.  He came close once with a 98 in 2015, which was his only season with an OPS of .700.  His lifetime OPS+ is 83 and his OPS+ last year was 49.  It just plain doesn't get much worse than that.  That would be very bad, but maybe bearable, if he were an excellent-fielding middle infielder, but as an outfielder with no arm, it is amazingly terrible.   For reference, JJ Hardy's OPS+ was 88 last season, and 92 for his career.  Revere makes Hardy look like an offensive stud.

OPS+ is meaningless in this case. You're not signing him to hit home runs. You're signing him to get on base, steal some bases and score runs. All those are things he does pretty well. Sorry, but OPS+ is not a magic potion for everything. The Orioles are a real team, not a fantasy team. He's a leadoff hitter, not a cleanup hitter.

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3 minutes ago, Moondoggie said:

OPS+ is meaningless in this case. You're not signing him to hit home runs. You're signing him to get on base, steal some bases and score runs. All those are things he does pretty well. Sorry, but OPS+ is not a magic potion for everything. The Orioles are a real team, not a fantasy team. He's a leadoff hitter, not a cleanup hitter.

Absolutely right!

 

That's wOBA.

Edited by Can_of_corn

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2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

They could have trusted the doctors.

But the O's are too risk adverse to do something like extend a guy recovering from knee surgery.

Extend a guy for 200m recovering from knee surgery.  That takes most guts than most owners have.  Not just Angelos.

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39 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Extend a guy for 200m recovering from knee surgery.  That takes most guts than most owners have.  Not just Angelos.

A dollar amount was never discussed publicly. Now, that would be a bargain. I guess Davis was less of a risk. 

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32 minutes ago, Dark Helmet said:

A dollar amount was never discussed publicly. Now, that would be a bargain. I guess Davis was less of a risk. 

At least Davis could walk.  Not one but two knee surgeries and the suggestion is to sign him for what would probably have to 10 years before Manny even shows he could get through a whole season.  

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3 hours ago, wildcard said:

DD: The players need to go where they can get the most money and maximize their careers, that’s the way the system is set up. As long as there’s a lot of interest around the world and around the league, I think you’ll continue to see robust player salaries. The problem I have with that kind of money is it takes more than one player to have a good team and the fans want a good team year in and year out which is what we’ve been giving them in Baltimore here making the playoffs three out of the last five years and having competitive, winning teams every year. But the challenge to doing that is you can’t put too much money in any one player because it takes a lot of good players to have a good team and that’s really the challenge of running a team year in and year out. We keep trying to find that sweet spot. I don’t begrudge the players for getting a lot of money, but what I don’t like, I’d like to see it more evenly distributed from player to player. You’re not an individual performer when you’re out there on the field. Yeah those players have great talent, but you can come out to see the team and they like to see the team win.

 

 

I completely agree with DD's philosophy here.  This isn't the NFL where an elite QB can compensate for second-rate receivers and a shaky o-line.  Or the NBA where a Michael Jordan can put the whole team on his back and score from any part of the floor and guard the opposing team's best player all by himself.  In baseball, if the ball's hit to you, you've gotta make a play.  And when it's your turn to bat, you have to hit the ball.  There's no way to "hide" inferior talent in baseball.  

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3 hours ago, Moondoggie said:

OPS+ is meaningless in this case. You're not signing him to hit home runs. You're signing him to get on base, steal some bases and score runs. All those are things he does pretty well. Sorry, but OPS+ is not a magic potion for everything. The Orioles are a real team, not a fantasy team. He's a leadoff hitter, not a cleanup hitter.

OPS+ is never meaningless. Batting average usually is, especially in Revere's case. he doesn't get on base enough to mask his total lack of pop because he doesn't take walks. He has a career wRC+ of 83. That makes him 17 percent below league average offensively. He's a poor hitter.

Edited by Babypowder

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3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Absolutely right!

 

That's wOBA.

You mean wRC+ :)

wOBA isn't park adjusted. I don't like offensive stats that make Rockies players look like they can hit.

Edited by Babypowder

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I'd like to think that DD would talk about a Manny extension to Angelos now. I'd make a lot of the contract incentive based that would be easy to get like contracts we see with Tom Brady, Big Ben, etc. and promise that if he takes a deal like that we will spend and build a competitive team around him. I think if you take the LeBron route, you could keep him 

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1 hour ago, Babypowder said:

OPS+ is never meaningless. Batting average usually is, especially in Revere's case. he doesn't get on base enough to mask his total lack of pop because he doesn't take walks. He has a career wRC+ of 83. That makes him 17 percent below league average offensively. He's a poor hitter.

This kind of thing used to be axiomatic here, but things have dumbed down so much lately we should make this a sticky.

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9 hours ago, wildcard said:

At least Davis could walk.  Not one but two knee surgeries and the suggestion is to sign him for what would probably have to 10 years before Manny even shows he could get through a whole season.  

You suggested signing Tillman to a 4 year deal. A pitcher is always one pitch away from maybe their last. It's always a risk. And the Dr's said the found and fixed the issue. 2 straight healthy years later. Every contract is a risk. It just doesn't make sense to talk about tying all of your money into one player, a year after they chose to make Davis the highest paid Oriole ever. Which no one was happy with, especially if it meant saying bye to Manny. 

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10 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

They could have trusted the doctors.

But the O's are too risk adverse to do something like extend a guy recovering from knee surgery.

It was Neal Elattrache.  I don't think he really kept the Orioles in the loop.

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