Jump to content
Carllamy

Mediocre Teams in Camden Yards

Recommended Posts

As Monday starts the Camden Yards 25th Anniversary, I thought it would be a hoot to look through the Opening Day lineups and put together a Camden Yards Opening Day all-bad team. While it is possible to do (see below) the one thing that jumped out at me was that, during their tenure at Camden Yards, the O's really haven't fielded (at least in terms of Opening Day starters) a lot of truly bad players/lineups. There have been some, but I compared lineups with some from before Camden Yards, and was surprised.

It isn't that these teams were bad, per se, at least in my opinion. The problem was, many were just really, really mediocre. I picked one at random, the 1999 team. The Opening Day Lineup was:

Charles Johnson - C, Will Clark -1B, Jeff Reboulet - 2B, Cal Ripken - 3B, Mike Bordick - SS, B.J. Surhoff, Brady Anderson and Albert Belle - OF, an ageing Jeff Conine - DH and Mike Mussina  - P.

Really, when you look at that team, there aren't really any awful players (I assume Jeff Reboulet was in for injury, like Ryan Flaherty in 2014 and 2015 starting lineups? I don't remember). And, there are some good players. But it just wasn't a team that was ever going to be good. Nor was it gong to be awful. It was always going to be mediocre unless several guys played at the absolute top of their games. Which didn't happen. They won 78 games. Which should have been, and really was, predictable. And while this team, as a random example of the teams that have started in Camden Yards wasn't good, compared to some of the lineups at looked at pre-Camden Yards (see 1988) it wasn't really embarrassingly bad.

My point is, Camden Yards has marked sort of a long-term resurgence for the Orioles. The teams have gone from plain bad pre-Camden Yards, to no worse than mediocre and actually good during the Camden Yards years.  And that was a surprise to me. I had it in my head that some of the Camden Yards teams were just awful. There's no doubt that some were simply not good, but I don't think any were actually bad. That said, my all-bad Camden Yards Opening Day lineup:

C - Gernimo Gil (It would have been Brook Fordyce, but I think he stated because of injury? just like Gregg Zaun, so I'm ruling him out)

1B - Kevin Millar

2B - It's a tie: Bret Barberie and Mark McLemore

3B - Chris Sabo

SS - Cesar Izturis

OF - Felix Pie, Andy Van Slyke, Sammy Sosa

DH - Joe Carter

P - Pat Hentgan *********** We have a winner. In my book, the most embarrassingly bad Opening Day player in Camden Yards history

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The most frequent reason the 2000s teams were so terrible was because of horrible pitching. Since the best pitcher usually goes on Opening Day, I'm not surprised the Opening Day lineups themselves would look a bit better than the team ended up being. But there were still certainly plenty of pretty bad starting position players over the years! 

Based on your picks I'm guessing you're measuring it by how bad the player was in the particular season they started on Opening Day. My amendment off the top of my head is that the 1b spot absolutely must go to Garrett Atkins. Millar was actually decent for us. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I went to baseball reference for the opening day lineups.

You are correct. Garrett Atkins started at 1B for us in 2010. I must have blotted that out of my mind. He immediately takes place as my worst Camden Yards era opening day first basemen, easily displacing Kevin Millar.

Bud Norris, according to Baseball Reference, was not an opening day starter (maybe he started opening day at Camden Yards some year we started on the road? I don't know). According to them, the opening day starters for the O's since 1992 have been:

Sutcliff, Sutcliff, Mussina, Mussina, Mussina, Jimmy Key, Mussina, Mussina, Mussina, Pat Hentgen, Scott Erickson, Rodrigo Lopez, Ponson, Lopez, Lopez, Bedard, Guthrie, Guthrie, Millwood, Guthrie, Arrietta, Hammel, Tillman, Tillman, and Tillman.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, TommyPickles said:

Can't believe Felix Pie made an opening day lineup.  When was that?

 

 

He was one of Andy's favorites.  I remember being annoyed that Pie was kept over Reimold since he was out of options.

I also remember Pie hitting for the cycle and the resulting meltdown on the board.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Felix Pie. Opening Day outfielder for the Baltimore Orioles, 2010.

 

Other Opening Day starters of note during the Camden Yards era:

Tony Tarasco, 1996

Delino DeShields, 2000

Deivi Cruz, 2003

Paul Bako, 2007

Corey Patterson, 2007

BTW, Cesar Izturis started 2 years in a row, 2008 and 2009

David Segui started as a 1B in 2001, and as DH in 2002

Edited by Carllamy
Poor typing ability

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Carllamy said:

As Monday starts the Camden Yards 25th Anniversary, I thought it would be a hoot to look through the Opening Day lineups and put together a Camden Yards Opening Day all-bad team. While it is possible to do (see below) the one thing that jumped out at me was that, during their tenure at Camden Yards, the O's really haven't fielded (at least in terms of Opening Day starters) a lot of truly bad players/lineups. There have been some, but I compared lineups with some from before Camden Yards, and was surprised.

It isn't that these teams were bad, per se, at least in my opinion. The problem was, many were just really, really mediocre. I picked one at random, the 1999 team. The Opening Day Lineup was:

Charles Johnson - C, Will Clark -1B, Jeff Reboulet - 2B, Cal Ripken - 3B, Mike Bordick - SS, B.J. Surhoff, Brady Anderson and Albert Belle - OF, an ageing Jeff Conine - DH and Mike Mussina  - P.

Really, when you look at that team, there aren't really any awful players (I assume Jeff Reboulet was in for injury, like Ryan Flaherty in 2014 and 2015 starting lineups? I don't remember). And, there are some good players. But it just wasn't a team that was ever going to be good. Nor was it gong to be awful. It was always going to be mediocre unless several guys played at the absolute top of their games. Which didn't happen. They won 78 games. Which should have been, and really was, predictable. And while this team, as a random example of the teams that have started in Camden Yards wasn't good, compared to some of the lineups at looked at pre-Camden Yards (see 1988) it wasn't really embarrassingly bad.

My point is, Camden Yards has marked sort of a long-term resurgence for the Orioles. The teams have gone from plain bad pre-Camden Yards, to no worse than mediocre and actually good during the Camden Yards years.  And that was a surprise to me. I had it in my head that some of the Camden Yards teams were just awful. There's no doubt that some were simply not good, but I don't think any were actually bad. That said, my all-bad Camden Yards Opening Day lineup:

C - Gernimo Gil (It would have been Brook Fordyce, but I think he stated because of injury? just like Gregg Zaun, so I'm ruling him out)

1B - Kevin Millar

2B - It's a tie: Bret Barberie and Mark McLemore

3B - Chris Sabo

SS - Cesar Izturis

OF - Felix Pie, Andy Van Slyke, Sammy Sosa

DH - Joe Carter

P - Pat Hentgan *********** We have a winner. In my book, the most embarrassingly bad Opening Day player in Camden Yards history

I agree with some of the ideas you outline.  However, I believe that the quality (or lack thereof) of Orioles teams through the years has more often been correlated with the leadership-usually the GM and the decisions made by those individuals.  Often the choices made by previous GMs then led to real downturns years after they had left the organization.    I think it has little to do with teams being "plain bad pre- Camden Yards" and then somehow improved after moving to Camden Yards.   Because, of course, some if not the best Orioles teams ever were at Memorial Stadium in the 1960s and 1970s and even into the 1980s.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/1/2017 at 11:59 AM, Carllamy said:

As Monday starts the Camden Yards 25th Anniversary, I thought it would be a hoot to look through the Opening Day lineups and put together a Camden Yards Opening Day all-bad team. While it is possible to do (see below) the one thing that jumped out at me was that, during their tenure at Camden Yards, the O's really haven't fielded (at least in terms of Opening Day starters) a lot of truly bad players/lineups. There have been some, but I compared lineups with some from before Camden Yards, and was surprised.

It isn't that these teams were bad, per se, at least in my opinion. The problem was, many were just really, really mediocre. I picked one at random, the 1999 team. The Opening Day Lineup was:

Charles Johnson - C, Will Clark -1B, Jeff Reboulet - 2B, Cal Ripken - 3B, Mike Bordick - SS, B.J. Surhoff, Brady Anderson and Albert Belle - OF, an ageing Jeff Conine - DH and Mike Mussina  - P.

Really, when you look at that team, there aren't really any awful players (I assume Jeff Reboulet was in for injury, like Ryan Flaherty in 2014 and 2015 starting lineups? I don't remember).

Ah, this brings back some painful memories. Yes, Reboulet was an injury replacement in that '99 Opening Day lineup. The O's had signed Delino DeShields to a three-year deal to be their second baseman, but he missed the first week of the season with an injury.

Quote

That said, my all-bad Camden Yards Opening Day lineup:

C - Gernimo Gil (It would have been Brook Fordyce, but I think he stated because of injury? just like Gregg Zaun, so I'm ruling him out)

1B - Kevin Millar

2B - It's a tie: Bret Barberie and Mark McLemore

3B - Chris Sabo

SS - Cesar Izturis

OF - Felix Pie, Andy Van Slyke, Sammy Sosa

DH - Joe Carter

P - Pat Hentgan *********** We have a winner. In my book, the most embarrassingly bad Opening Day player in Camden Yards history

Sadly, Brook Fordyce was not an injury replacement. He was actually the Orioles' regular catcher that year (2001). The O's got him in the 2000 fire sale and he hit very well the rest of that year (.322 with an .898 OPS) so they anointed him their starter for 2001. It...didn't go well.

Zaun wasn't an injury replacement per se when he started (2009). He was the regular catcher for the first month and a half, but with the understanding that he would become the backup once the Orioles promoted Matt Wieters to the majors, which they did in May.

As for Hentgen, he definitely wasn't the worst OD player in Camden Yards history. (That title belongs to Garrett Atkins, IMO). Heck, in Hentgen's Opening Day start, he pitched 8.2 innings and allowed only one run (and outdueled Pedro Martinez). It was probably one of the best O's Opening Day starting pitching performances in OPACY history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/1/2017 at 3:11 PM, sportsfan8703 said:

Pat Hentgen was poised to have a good year for us until he need TJ.  Millwood or Bud Norris are probably our two worst OD starters.  

Bud started an Orioles home opener (2015), but it wasn't Opening Day-- they started on the road that year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Saturday, April 01, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Carllamy said:

As Monday starts the Camden Yards 25th Anniversary, I thought it would be a hoot to look through the Opening Day lineups and put together a Camden Yards Opening Day all-bad team. While it is possible to do (see below) the one thing that jumped out at me was that, during their tenure at Camden Yards, the O's really haven't fielded (at least in terms of Opening Day starters) a lot of truly bad players/lineups. There have been some, but I compared lineups with some from before Camden Yards, and was surprised.

It isn't that these teams were bad, per se, at least in my opinion. The problem was, many were just really, really mediocre. I picked one at random, the 1999 team. The Opening Day Lineup was:

Charles Johnson - C, Will Clark -1B, Jeff Reboulet - 2B, Cal Ripken - 3B, Mike Bordick - SS, B.J. Surhoff, Brady Anderson and Albert Belle - OF, an ageing Jeff Conine - DH and Mike Mussina  - P.

Really, when you look at that team, there aren't really any awful players (I assume Jeff Reboulet was in for injury, like Ryan Flaherty in 2014 and 2015 starting lineups? I don't remember). And, there are some good players. But it just wasn't a team that was ever going to be good. Nor was it gong to be awful. It was always going to be mediocre unless several guys played at the absolute top of their games. Which didn't happen. They won 78 games. Which should have been, and really was, predictable. And while this team, as a random example of the teams that have started in Camden Yards wasn't good, compared to some of the lineups at looked at pre-Camden Yards (see 1988) it wasn't really embarrassingly bad.

My point is, Camden Yards has marked sort of a long-term resurgence for the Orioles. The teams have gone from plain bad pre-Camden Yards, to no worse than mediocre and actually good during the Camden Yards years.  And that was a surprise to me. I had it in my head that some of the Camden Yards teams were just awful. There's no doubt that some were simply not good, but I don't think any were actually bad. That said, my all-bad Camden Yards Opening Day lineup:

C - Gernimo Gil (It would have been Brook Fordyce, but I think he stated because of injury? just like Gregg Zaun, so I'm ruling him out)

1B - Kevin Millar

2B - It's a tie: Bret Barberie and Mark McLemore

3B - Chris Sabo

SS - Cesar Izturis

OF - Felix Pie, Andy Van Slyke, Sammy Sosa

DH - Joe Carter

P - Pat Hentgan *********** We have a winner. In my book, the most embarrassingly bad Opening Day player in Camden Yards history

Pat Hentgen threw maybe the best OD start in OPACY other than Sutcliffe. He out pitched a Pedro Martinez that was in his prime.

I'd take Joe Carter at DH over Chris Richard.

I'd take Mark McClemore over Jeff Resolute.

I'd take Caesar Itzturis over Devil Cruz.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Dark Helmet said:

Pat Hentgen threw maybe the best OD start in OPACY other than Sutcliffe. He out pitched a Pedro Martinez that was in his prime.

I'd take Joe Carter at DH over Chris Richard.

I'd take Mark McClemore over Jeff Resolute.

I'd take Caesar Itzturis over Devil Cruz.

 

Reboulet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On April 1, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Carllamy said:

As Monday starts the Camden Yards 25th Anniversary, I thought it would be a hoot to look through the Opening Day lineups and put together a Camden Yards Opening Day all-bad team. While it is possible to do (see below) the one thing that jumped out at me was that, during their tenure at Camden Yards, the O's really haven't fielded (at least in terms of Opening Day starters) a lot of truly bad players/lineups. There have been some, but I compared lineups with some from before Camden Yards, and was surprised.

It isn't that these teams were bad, per se, at least in my opinion. The problem was, many were just really, really mediocre. I picked one at random, the 1999 team. The Opening Day Lineup was:

Charles Johnson - C, Will Clark -1B, Jeff Reboulet - 2B, Cal Ripken - 3B, Mike Bordick - SS, B.J. Surhoff, Brady Anderson and Albert Belle - OF, an ageing Jeff Conine - DH and Mike Mussina  - P.

Really, when you look at that team, there aren't really any awful players (I assume Jeff Reboulet was in for injury, like Ryan Flaherty in 2014 and 2015 starting lineups? I don't remember). And, there are some good players. But it just wasn't a team that was ever going to be good. Nor was it gong to be awful. It was always going to be mediocre unless several guys played at the absolute top of their games. Which didn't happen. They won 78 games. Which should have been, and really was, predictable. And while this team, as a random example of the teams that have started in Camden Yards wasn't good, compared to some of the lineups at looked at pre-Camden Yards (see 1988) it wasn't really embarrassingly bad.

My point is, Camden Yards has marked sort of a long-term resurgence for the Orioles. The teams have gone from plain bad pre-Camden Yards, to no worse than mediocre and actually good during the Camden Yards years.  And that was a surprise to me. I had it in my head that some of the Camden Yards teams were just awful. There's no doubt that some were simply not good, but I don't think any were actually bad. That said, my all-bad Camden Yards Opening Day lineup:

C - Gernimo Gil (It would have been Brook Fordyce, but I think he stated because of injury? just like Gregg Zaun, so I'm ruling him out)

1B - Kevin Millar

2B - It's a tie: Bret Barberie and Mark McLemore

3B - Chris Sabo

SS - Cesar Izturis

OF - Felix Pie, Andy Van Slyke, Sammy Sosa

DH - Joe Carter

P - Pat Hentgan *********** We have a winner. In my book, the most embarrassingly bad Opening Day player in Camden Yards history

You are correct in assuming that Reboulet was playing due to injury. Delino Deshields was the primary 2B in 99... though his health issues led to Jerry Hairston getting a number of at bats, too.

I am thoroughly entertained that you've identified Jeff Conine as the "aging" playing in that lineup, considering there are no less than 6 players in it that are actually older than him. :P

Ripken, Anderson, Bordick, Clark, Reboulet, Surhoff. All older. It was an old team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Orioles Information


Orioles News and Information

Daily Organizational Boxscores
News

Tony's Takes

Orioles Roster Resource

Orioles Prospect Information

2021 Top 30 Prospects List

Prospect Scouting Reports

Statistics

2021 Orioles Stats

2021 Orioles Minor League Stats

Baseball Savant Stats






  • Posts

    • Being the number one destination by a long shot in an area with top 5 amateur talent still matters. Being in an attractive major urban area still matters. Having top notch facilities and fan base still matters. Leaving the ACC hurt the programs standing.  But there's a reason the school has had such sustained stretches of success in the past.  Even under Turgeon the team was generally a top 25ish team. If you get fired for being generally top 25ish, that's because people have higher expectations for the program.  And they should.  Because the school has all the advantages to be a top 20 team annually.   Now, that's not saying this hire will end up well for MD.  They could conceivably get worse.  But that won't be because of the program's potential.
    • I think you're looking at it the wrong way by placing too much emphasis on the current state of the program.  I of course don't think thry are currently a top-25 program.  But Maryland was able to lure away P5 coaches from schools that are on your list for their last 2 coaching hires, including during a time when they were facing NCAA sanctions.  On top of that, they were really close to luring away a coach (Sean Miller) from a program that I had listed as better than us.  That's fact, not theory.  I don't believe for a second that Turgeon's tenure here dropped the desirability of this job down to where we aren't still close to that level, nor do I think that the other schools closed the gap so significantly that we are worse than all of them.   Let's look at it another way.  If Iowa lost its coach and were looking for a coach this offseason, would they beat us out in terms of hires?  Would TAMU?   Would Alabama?  Would USC?  With Iowa and TAMU I feel very strongly thay they wouldn't. Especially since we already poached one coach from TAMU.  Alabama?  Maybe depending on how much a coach values environment over Benjamin's.  USC?  Only for someone who wants to be in LA.  FSU?  Absolutely not.  Auburn?  similar to Alabama IMO but maybe more tilted in favor of Auburn.  Arkansas?  Debatable as well.   Regardless there are enough schools on this list where I think Maryland comes out clearly ahead in this exercise that I feel comfortable putting this HC position as a top-25 job.
    • Well, Westry is out.  Smith hurt his ankle And Young was sick.  It could mean they just want more depth and that none of them are out. The McCrary thing is interesting.  Wonder if they give him carries tomorrow?
    • 2022 MLB Draft - Top 200 Prospects — Prospects Live   I posted this a month ago.  Check out his swing at No. 7.    
    • Apparently Enfield has some local ties…maybe that’s a big help. Odom, the coach at UMBC when they beat UvA figures to be on the list too.
    • Oh man, there should definitely be a Summers Eve Douche Bowl.  That would be amazing!
    • This. I was always a MD Basketball fan first football fan second even though I like football more. Mostly because I grew up with Len Bias during the glory years of Lefty and then Gary Williams cam in and let them very relevent winning it all with an underdog squad. I could not be happier that Turgeon is gone as I've been off his bandwagon for a long time. He's an awful in game coach and his offense is stale, boring and basically resides around throwing up threes or letting his star be stars. Losing Wiggens and Morsell should have told Evans he needed to finally push him out the door, but now we have another lost year.  They need a splashy signing that will invigorate the recruiting and the program. I'll be honest, I tried watching a game or two but found myself disinterested and worse, I really cared less about the VT game where they just looked awful down the stretch. All I kept thinking to myself is more boring Turgeon ball. Either way, I wish there was some way to go back to the ACC but I doubt that will ever happen. MD football will always be irrelevant in the Big-10 because they will never be able to compete with Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State and Penn State because they have huge packed stadiums every year and compete in major bowls while the Terps end up in Summers Eve Douche Bowl.  And yes, I had to look up a brand of douche! MD basketball should be good because of the local talent and facilities, but as was mentioned already, the college sports scene has changed with social media, one and done possibilities and the transfer pool. And that's doesn't even take into consideration the "likeness pay" is going to have. Both programs need big time coaches to ever have a chance but sadly, Evans is not concerned with making money rather than having success in the field/court.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...