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Dan places the blame for losing year squarely on the starters

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6 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

I don't think it is preposterous. Tillman and Ubaldo were absolutely terrible. Tillman and Gausman were both coming off of 4 WAR seasons. Ubaldo was coming off 0 WAR but 2.6 WAR the year before. Tillman was -6 WAR relative to last year, Gausman -2.4, and Ubaldo -2.8 relative to 2015-16. That's 11 WAR and that does not even count Miley, those guys were THAT BAD.

Make that -3.4 WAR for Gausman. Already down 6-0 through 3 IP.

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Duquette will forever be known as the Orioles GM that turned around the franchise...by completely and utterly throwing away the future.

It might be a harsh statement...and he was certainly effective. His mantra behind the scenes was apparently: "OBP is expensive and so is speed, so let's get a bunch of mashers. We can't afford starters, nor can we develop them...so let's just be average with an elite bullpen."

Now, on the surface it sounds good. It's all about playing the margins. Have a starter that can go 5 IP and give up 3-5 runs...and then the bullpen locks it down and hope/pray that the offense is on that night.

The thing about Dan...he lost all credibility/respect from me after the 2014 season. Here you have the opportunity to really shore things up right after winning the AL East handedly...and what did he do? Try to bail for Toronto. He completely punted the offseason. And then he panicked and the prized offseason acquisition was...wait for it...Travis Snider. Good grief.

But in the end, we've lost the following starters to win "now":

  • Eduardo Rodriguez
  • Zach Davies
  • Parker Bridwell
  • Jake Arrieta

Not to mention 2 first round draft picks (Gallardo, Ubaldo) and untradeable contracts in players like Davis and Trumbo.

The one thing I was afraid of was turning into the 2012-2017 Phillies. And it's really looking like the 2017 and beyond Orioles are trending in that direction.

 

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4 hours ago, LookitsPuck said:

The thing about Dan...he lost all credibility/respect from me after the 2014 season. Here you have the opportunity to really shore things up right after winning the AL East handedly...and what did he do? Try to bail for Toronto. He completely punted the offseason. And then he panicked and the prized offseason acquisition was...wait for it...Travis Snider. Good grief.

It's hard for me to blame Dan for wanting to go after a higher office position - however - the situation was handled very poorly and I don't see the need to retain the man that did that to his old organization.  I wonder if Mr. Angelos would have let him go, and brought in another GM ASAP, how that off season would have gone.  But asking him to do anything ASAP is a tall order.

I am quite pissed at Toronto for "playing dirty" and am glad that they screwed up a good thing by trading half their farm system.

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Of course it was the starting pitching. This is a team with few holes. What do we need next year outside of the rotation?  A vet LH OF bat, a util guy, and a healthy Britton.  

I think we should see what Brach, Castro and Blieir look like as SP's in the spring. Hope for a Tillman bounce back and sign a guy like Gonzo. 

If we're going the FA route we should just try and land one of the big boys. The mid tier FA SP have been screwing us over. 

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1 hour ago, 25 Nuggets said:

He should throw himself under the bus for signing Jimenez and Gallardo and Miley and trading for Hellickson.  I don't read that in the article.

I was making a comment to COC about why Davis wasn't mentioned. It was tongue in cheek.  

He has made many mistakes. The thing that gets me is the lack of context at times. A big reason why we won in 2012 was due to the pitching moves Dan made. From that season on we operated like a contender. The owner will not sign quality starters, nor International talent. The core of position player talent was good enough to build around. Dan has chased pitching his entire tenure. He has made mistakes chasing that pitching. 

My big point is the limitations he deals with should not excuse him for his mistakes but they also can't be ignored. Signing one top tier starting pitcher has a trickle down impact. He can't do that. Ubaldo was a terrible signing. I would also bet a big reason why Angelos approved it is because Ubaldo was a workhorse. I can't wait until this offseason. Any pitcher who has ever had TJ or another significant issue will pretty much be off the Orioles board unless ownership does a 180.  

The Orioles ask a GM to keep a team contending while providing little assistance in the process. I still don't think for one second Davis was someone Dan pushed to sign. The minor leagues have to come from basically the draft. Perhaps normal expenditures overseas would have allowed Dan to make better trades or use different assets. Most teams want pitching in return in trades. That has backfired on the Orioles. 

Arrieta butted heads with Buck's chosen pitching coach. That isn't on Dan. I still don't get the we would have won the division without Norris argument. Dan should have known that not only every pitcher would be better in 14 than 13, but also that they would all stay healthy? This year he gets ripped for his lack of depth but people wanted him to apparently ignore depth in 2013. Now we can argue just how good Norris was but still.

At the end of the day the results fall on his lap. That is how the world works.  I just think that after time any GM is going to make mistakes with the limitations placed upon them working here. 

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5 hours ago, eddie83 said:

I was making a comment to COC about why Davis wasn't mentioned. It was tongue in cheek.  

He has made many mistakes. The thing that gets me is the lack of context at times. A big reason why we won in 2012 was due to the pitching moves Dan made. From that season on we operated like a contender. The owner will not sign quality starters, nor International talent. The core of position player talent was good enough to build around. Dan has chased pitching his entire tenure. He has made mistakes chasing that pitching. 

My big point is the limitations he deals with should not excuse him for his mistakes but they also can't be ignored. Signing one top tier starting pitcher has a trickle down impact. He can't do that. Ubaldo was a terrible signing. I would also bet a big reason why Angelos approved it is because Ubaldo was a workhorse. I can't wait until this offseason. Any pitcher who has ever had TJ or another significant issue will pretty much be off the Orioles board unless ownership does a 180.  

The Orioles ask a GM to keep a team contending while providing little assistance in the process. I still don't think for one second Davis was someone Dan pushed to sign. The minor leagues have to come from basically the draft. Perhaps normal expenditures overseas would have allowed Dan to make better trades or use different assets. Most teams want pitching in return in trades. That has backfired on the Orioles. 

Arrieta butted heads with Buck's chosen pitching coach. That isn't on Dan. I still don't get the we would have won the division without Norris argument. Dan should have known that not only every pitcher would be better in 14 than 13, but also that they would all stay healthy? This year he gets ripped for his lack of depth but people wanted him to apparently ignore depth in 2013. Now we can argue just how good Norris was but still.

At the end of the day the results fall on his lap. That is how the world works.  I just think that after time any GM is going to make mistakes with the limitations placed upon them working here. 

This is a excellent post.

I would  like to add a little context.  If revenue is a determining factor the O's should finish 4th every year.  New York. Boston and Toronto all have bigger fan bases thus more revenue.  That allows there  GMs to make mistakes on players and simply eat these mistakes and move on to another expensive player.  The Orioles can't do that.  When a mistake is made on signing a player's contract the O's keep the player and work around it.   

The MLB is not a level playing field and that the what Dan deals with everyday.   Add that Peter often makes the decision on whether to sign an expensive players and it shows that Dan's job is a very hard one.  That he has been successful more times then not over the last 6 years is incredible.   That he has traded some young talent to win now is just part of what he has to do to be successful.  

I think fans that complain about Dan's trades don't take into account the position he is dealing from.  The hurdles that he overcomes to succeed.  I am just thankful that he has given us a good run of baseball to watch over the last 6 years.  I think if he wants to stay and Peter wants him to stay. he will find a way to keep the O's as contender and in some year more that that.  After all the bottom line is baseball is win, and he has done that.

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1 hour ago, Frobby said:

As of today, our starting pitchers have failed to last 5 innings in 49 starts, and have given up 5 ER or more in 53 starts.     

Last year, the starter failed to pitch 5 innings 34 times and allowed 5 ER or more 36 times.

Are you implying that ours starting pitching wasn't very good this year? 

I wonder what the record is for starts of less than 5 (or less than 4, for that matter) innings in a season. We've got to be  up near the top since I'm pretty sure that, as a general rule, until the last few years starters who were getting pummeled would have been left in longer than they are now.

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My issue with Duquette and the starting pitching is that a year like this year was inevitable; it had to happen sometime.  Many of us on the board said as much prior to the season - that not enough was done in the off season to bolster a wanting rotation.  For the Os to be contenders, almost all starters had to have better than career average seasons, the likelihood of which was hard to buy into from a fan's perspective.  I agree with the original post that it's not as if Duquette did nothing, but he did not do enough, especially when the team's achilles heel was as glaring then as it turned out to be.

I hope this season reinforces to the FO the importance of reliability and positive consistency in the rotation.

The off season will be interesting to follow... Here's to next season!

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15 minutes ago, birdwatcher55 said:

I could never see Dempsey getting the GM job. Brady might be better than some people think. Are there any Klentak types buried in this organization?

Why do you say that?

Brady seems like a bright guy, and it appears he is pretty popular among a lot of people around the Orioles. But I don't know much about what he's contributed since his retirement as a player.

I know about his off-season conditioning program. I know that he does some in-season coaching. I know that he was involved in the negotiations with Trumbo and O'Day. I understand that he has the owner's ear, suggesting to me that the owner trusts his judgment on baseball matters. I've read that he does not report to Duquette or anyone else, so that he has access to the owner directly without going through any  organizational chain. I've read that his unusual role was a factor in the departure of Wallace and Chiti. But that's about it. 

Why do you (or why does anyone else) think Brady would be successful if he replaced Duquette this off-season or next ? 

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