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Roll Tide

Os requesting offers on Machado

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3 minutes ago, Yardball85 said:

Kelly, Gomber, Flaherty, Helsley would be great.  Heck, I'd take Gyorko/Wong over Helsley.

Rather have Kelsey over Wong whom I have no interest....I'd ge surprised if they trade us Gyorko. If so I'd bite but I doubt they give us Kelly.

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3 minutes ago, Yardball85 said:

Kelly, Gomber, Flaherty, Helsley would be great.  Heck, I'd take Gyorko/Wong over Helsley.

I don't want Gyork or Wong. Not that they are not decent players, I just think we can sign better in Free Agency to play third base. Then leave Jon Schoop at 2nd. OK, I am a Moustakis fan. Lol. I actually think this whole thing about trading Manny could allow us to be better in 2018 and much, much better in subsequent years. So, I would like to load up on good young pitchers which is the hardest position for us to accumulate. As for Kelly?? The value of an excellent defensive Catcher is huge, take it from an old Catcher.

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1 minute ago, theobird said:

I don't want Gyork or Wong. Not that they are not decent players, I just think we can sign better in Free Agency to play third base. Then leave Jon Schoop at 2nd. OK, I am a Moustakis fan. Lol. I actually think this whole thing about trading Manny could allow us to be better in 2018 and much, much better in subsequent years. So, I would like to load up on good young pitchers which is the hardest position for us to accumulate. As for Kelly?? The value of an excellent defensive Catcher is huge, take it from an old Catcher.

Lol, I didn't mean i want either of them more than Helsley.  Just if it was a dealbreaker, I'd take one.  Kelly would be a nice pick up, and then I'd try to deal Sisco for an SP.  I think I prefer Frazier to Moustakas considering Frazier likely takes a shorter commitment.

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6 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I like it ...I'd be surprised if we get Kelly ....my only concern is how poorly his running is rated 20/80

In baseball video games, you could mess with the stats to get players so slow that it was like they were travelling the bases with their legs removed.  This reminded me of that, for some reason.  

In all seriousness, though, here is him running:  

I know it was a no doubter double and he slowed up going to second, but I had trouble finding anything else.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, theobird said:

I don't want Gyork or Wong. Not that they are not decent players, I just think we can sign better in Free Agency to play third base. Then leave Jon Schoop at 2nd. OK, I am a Moustakis fan. Lol. I actually think this whole thing about trading Manny could allow us to be better in 2018 and much, much better in subsequent years. So, I would like to load up on good young pitchers which is the hardest position for us to accumulate. As for Kelly?? The value of an excellent defensive Catcher is huge, take it from an old Catcher.

I agree that I prefer the pitching and prospect over their rostered players. I like Mike M also but don't want the Os to give him 100 MM dollars

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18 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

All I need him to be is a pitcher not a thrower. .95 WHIP in 7 starts this year with a 2.7 era. 

He is a thrower though.  His command is his weakest point, the stuff is still enough to be a #4 innings eater.  I was just detailing why his stock has declined from when he was a grade 70 prospect.

He had a 4.48 ERA in AAA and a 1.41 WHIP in 24 starts. I like Giolito, but I'm just trying to realistically appraise players.

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3 minutes ago, Yardball85 said:

Lol, I didn't mean i want either of them more than Helsley.  Just if it was a dealbreaker, I'd take one.  Kelly would be a nice pick up, and then I'd try to deal Sisco for an SP.  I think I prefer Frazier to Moustakas considering Frazier likely takes a shorter commitment.

Sure and I'd like the 2nd pitcher to be Dakota Hudson ..I just don't think we can get it

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15 hours ago, RZNJ said:

BTW, reading between the lines (report that WS didn't include any top 5 prospects)   (offer reportedly included young ML talent) I'm going to guess at some of the players in the White Sox offer.

1. Carson Fullmer (24 - 6 years of service time) -  Currently rated #9 on MLB and #7 by Baseball America before the season.   He has a little ML experience which is what the Orioles want (ML ready).    His minor league numbers have not been good but he's said to have the upside of a #3 starter    He's a smallish RH pitcher 6' tall, which is considered a bad profile for durability and staying injury free.    The White Sox would probably not mind giving him up.

2. Tim Anderson -  24 - signed to a 5/25M contract with club options of 12.5M and 14M in 2023-2024.    Anderson was the WS SS last year and had a disappointing 2nd season with a .679 OPS (.276 OBP).    He was also erratic at SS.   However, he was rated #45 overall prospect before the 2016 season.    His plate discipline has ORIOLE written all over him.   Still, he's talent with speed (49 sb in the minors and 15 out of 16 last year,  some power (26 2B, 4 3B, 17 HR, and was a plus defensive player in 2016 (2.8 WAR overall in only 99 games).    Again everyone will say "no way!"  but there is some upside here.    He has to go so the WS master plan can go into effect.   That plan is to play Machado at SS, enhancing his trade appeal at the deadline as either a SS or 3B and the WS, assuming Machado has a good year, can get high end prospects at the deadline when they flip Machado to a contender.

3.  This is probably another minor league starter in the 10-20 range in the WS system.   Someone no one will be happy with.   Spencer Adams?   Jordan Stephens?     Duquette has already publicly boxed himself into a corner saying that he has to get two starters for Machado so they will play either one of these middling prospects up as better than they really are.   However, since both pitched at AA last year, he can say they are close to ML ready and might even help this year.    And he can say that he got two starting pitchers for Machado and a very talented, toolsy, young SS.     Of course, then the question is where do Schoop, Anderson, and Beckham all play in the Orioles infield?

 

You will probably say that package stinks and you could be right but I'm guessing I'm pretty close.   We may never know the package but I would love to find out and see if I'm close or way, way off.

 

 

To play devil's advocate, I would have two issues with this deal.  From the Sox perspective, dealing Anderson and then having MM walk after a year leaves a pretty big hole at SS.  Second, while Fullmer is ML ready and has a good profile with plus pitches except for the BBs, by my count, among the ChiSox young pitchers/pitching prospects, the Os end up with the seventh best guy (Fullmer) who would presumably be behind Lopez, Giolito, Kopech, Cease, Hansen and Dunning.   I don't think it is a bad offer and, frankly, not such a difference in talent than what I posted.  Maybe combine our two offers and it is Lopez and Fulmer as the top two guys - both on the major league roster and two SPs as requested by the Os.

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5 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

He is a thrower though.  His command is his weakest point, the stuff is still enough to be a #4 innings eater.  I was just detailing why his stock has declined from when he was a grade 70 prospect.

He had a 4.48 ERA in AAA and a 1.41 WHIP in 24 starts. I like Giolito, but I'm just trying to realistically appraise players.

I think I'd ge happy with 5 years of a number 4 innInns eater to go with Cease or Hansen as you potential #1

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Just now, Roll Tide said:

I think I'd ge happy with 5 years of a number 4 innInns eater to go with Cease or Hansen as you potential #1

I never said I wouldn't be, I'm not criticizing proposed trades unless I say I'm criticizing proposed trades, again I'm just trying to appraise players people ask about.

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34 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

He lost his premium stuff, his fastball used to sit comfortably in the mid 90s, now it averages 92mph.  His curveball, once plus or better, hasn't been as good, still above average.  He has good control, but his command isn't great, although that usually comes later for tall pitchers.

Also keep in mind the Nationals started tinkering with him and really caused him to take a step backwards. The White Sox spent a significant amount of time and effort trying to return him to previous form. 

He’s still a work in progress, but he seemed to progress in the second half of last year.

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3 minutes ago, iamshack said:

Also keep in mind the Nationals started tinkering with him and really caused him to take a step backwards. The White Sox spent a significant amount of time and effort trying to return him to previous form. 

He’s still a work in progress, but he seemed to progress in the second half of last year.

Yeah, I haven't watched him closely enough to tell why he lost his stuff, but the stuff was still diminished at the end of 2017.  Not to say that doesn't play, it just definitely not #1/#2 stuff.

Also, not saying he can't get it back.  It's just hard to project that.  I do project an improvement in command/control.

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18 minutes ago, Danger Zone said:

Here is an article about the possible trade from the Cardinals perspective. Not sure how much this guy knows about the O's "wish" list though.

 

Hot Stove Machado/Cardinals

 

I have no problem seeing the Os  taking Flaherty and Kelly as the main two pieces. I don't know about Hicks but I'd rather have Gomber as he's LH , throws a sinker and is closer.

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1 minute ago, phillyOs119 said:

Yeah, I haven't watched him closely enough to tell why he lost his stuff, but the stuff was still diminished at the end of 2017.  Not to say that doesn't play, it just definitely not #1/#2 stuff.

Also, not saying he can't get it back.  It's just hard to project that.  I do project an improvement in command/control.

I agree. He still has good tilt and horizontal movement his fastball due to his height, a plus to plus-plus curve ball, and he seemed to making progress with a change up and slider. Right now he’s looking more like a 3 than the 1-2 he was once thought to be, but it isn’t out of the realm of possibilities that he could regain some of that previous upside.

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