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Any Clarity on Last Night's Sanchez/Stanton Situation

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16 minutes ago, OrioleMagic79 said:

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but please just take a breath and keep an open mind ...

I believe that the umpires (by pure luck, because it seemed clear they didn't know the rule) got the call right. I know, I know, there was an expert and they came out and said they got it wrong, but I think that is because everybody is so focused on the rule, yet nobody seems to have noticed that the rule should never have come into play in the first place. I actually believe Stanton (not sure if intentionally) made a good base running decision on the play ...

OK, let me explain ...

First, a bit of context ... let's imagine a hit and run play for a moment ... the runner on second takes off for third, the pitch is delivered and a line drive to the left fielder is caught while the runner has already rounded third base and started toward home ... it is pretty common knowledge that in order to avoid being doubled up at second, the runner must go back and tag third on his way back to second base ... that's because he is officially still making his way back to third base (on the base path between third and home) until he touches third and heads back toward second base ...

Another example to help illustrate the point ... a hitter hits a ball in the gap and immediately decides to go for two bases (a double) ... he misses first base and slides into second base before the tag on the relay throw ... how does the defense get him out? They must throw the ball to first base and get the force out ... why? Because technically/officially the runner is considered on the base path from home to first base and has yet to arrive at his destination safely ... therefore the force play is still alive and throwing the ball to first base is a force out, since the runner never safely touched first base ...

OK, OK, get to the point ... on this particular play, Stanton never touched third base when Joseph was chasing him back to the bag ... therefore, he cannot be considered either "on third base" OR "on the base path between second and third base ... so it is impossible to consider Sanchez to have "passed him on the base paths" and so Sanchez should still be safe ... Stanton did run out of the base path, so he should be called out for that being in foul territory and no longer within what is considered the official base path ...

Had Stanton actually touched third base and then headed toward left field as he did, then once he touched third and continued on, that means he is officially on the base path between second and third base and Sanchez, with his foot still in contact with the bag (third base) is officially past Stanton on the base paths ... and THIS I believe is what Buck and Joseph were arguing for and the O's were practicing in Spring Training ... I think the O's having practiced the play had them eager and ready to execute it and so Joseph likely didn't even notice (or tried to pull the wool over the umpires' eyes) and did what he should have to get two outs by first tagging Sanchez and then Stanton ... a heads-up play whether he knew Stanton did or did not touch the bag ...

Either way, it is a really interesting discussion and this rule is now something that more people are aware of, however I think this tiny detail that Stanton didn't touch the bag is being overlooked because this is a rule that many people were unaware of ...

The problem is that Stanton doesn't give himself up immediately. He goes past the bag by a step or two, then turns away from the field. The instant he goes past the bag, Sanchez is out. Then Stanton is out.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bs-sp-orioles-yankees-rundown-20180406-story.html

After the game, crew chief Jerry Meals told a pool reporter that the umpires erred in making the call the way they did. Third base umpire Ron Kulpa called Stanton out for leaving the base path.

“As soon as Stanton ran by him into foul territory there, [Kulpa] had him out for abandoning his effort, which gave Sanchez the base so when they tagged him, he wasn’t out,” Meals said. “That was our explanation on the field. We were incorrect. The ruling is when a runner from second, in that situation, when a runner from second has occupied third and the lead runner goes beyond third base to the outfield or wherever, runs past it, the interpretation is the runner from second is past that runner, the lead runner, so he is out automatically without being tagged. Sánchez should have been out automatically for passing Stanton. Then, Stanton had the right to come back and touch third before being tagged or be called out for abandoning his effort.”

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30 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

The problem is that Stanton doesn't give himself up immediately. He goes past the bag by a step or two, then turns away from the field. The instant he goes past the bag, Sanchez is out. Then Stanton is out.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bs-sp-orioles-yankees-rundown-20180406-story.html

After the game, crew chief Jerry Meals told a pool reporter that the umpires erred in making the call the way they did. Third base umpire Ron Kulpa called Stanton out for leaving the base path.

“As soon as Stanton ran by him into foul territory there, [Kulpa] had him out for abandoning his effort, which gave Sanchez the base so when they tagged him, he wasn’t out,” Meals said. “That was our explanation on the field. We were incorrect. The ruling is when a runner from second, in that situation, when a runner from second has occupied third and the lead runner goes beyond third base to the outfield or wherever, runs past it, the interpretation is the runner from second is past that runner, the lead runner, so he is out automatically without being tagged. Sánchez should have been out automatically for passing Stanton. Then, Stanton had the right to come back and touch third before being tagged or be called out for abandoning his effort.”

The problem is, he never officially "ran past" third base because in order to do that, you need to touch third base ... all Stanton was guilty of was running out of the baseline, which should mean he is automatically out ... the rule is written to mean that if Stanton touches third base and then runs into the outfield (or anywhere else, i.e. foul territory past the bag), then he has been passed by Sanchez ... they all are reciting the rule correctly, but they are missing the fact that Stanton never touched the bag ... therefore it is impossible to be passed by someone who is standing on the bag that you, as the runner, have yet to reach ...

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36 minutes ago, OrioleMagic79 said:

The problem is, he never officially "ran past" third base because in order to do that, you need to touch third base ... all Stanton was guilty of was running out of the baseline, which should mean he is automatically out ... the rule is written to mean that if Stanton touches third base and then runs into the outfield (or anywhere else, i.e. foul territory past the bag), then he has been passed by Sanchez ... they all are reciting the rule correctly, but they are missing the fact that Stanton never touched the bag ... therefore it is impossible to be passed by someone who is standing on the bag that you, as the runner, have yet to reach ...

I don't think touching the base has anything to do with it. If Sanchez was in the middle of the basepath and Stanton passes him, Sanchez is out. It just happens that he is standing on the base.

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Just now, Aristotelian said:

I don't think touching the base has anything to do with it. If Sanchez was in the middle of the basepath and Stanton passes him, Sanchez is out. It just happens that he is standing on the base.

But they aren't on the same base path unless Stanton touches third ...

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2018 Official Baseball Rules_2018 Official Baseball Rules  2/27/18  2:16 PM  Page 46
Rule 5.09(b)(9) to 5.09(b)(12)47

Rule 5.09(b)(9) Comment: A runner may be deemed to have passed a preceding (i.e., lead) runner based on his actions or the actions of a preceding runner.

PLAY—Runners on second base and third base with one out.The runner from third base (i.e., the lead runner) makes an advance toward home and is caught in a rundown between third base and home plate.  Believing the lead runner will be tagged out, the runner at second base (i.e., the trailing runner)advances to third base.  Before being tagged, the lead runner runs back to and beyond third base toward left field.  At this time, the trailing runner has passed the lead runner as a result of the lead runner’s actions.  As a result, the trailing runner is out and third base is unoccupied.  The lead runner is entitled to third base if he returns to touch it before he is out, see Rule5.06(a)(1),  unless  he  is  declared  out  for  abandoning  the bases.

------

I will admit there is room for different interpretations here, however, the letter of the rule here matters in my opinion. First of all, everywhere else in the rules that I have seen where it says a "runner runs to" a base, it implies that he in fact touches/makes contact that base. You have not "run to" something if you never, in fact, reach it ... you are still running "toward" it ...

If the rule simply said "the lead runner runs back beyond third base toward left field" but left out "to and," then you would be correct ... however, the rule says both "back to (the base)" and "beyond (the base)" ... the "back to" would be an unnecessary part of the sentence/rule if touching the base were not required for the rule to apply ...

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33 minutes ago, OrioleMagic79 said:

2018 Official Baseball Rules_2018 Official Baseball Rules  2/27/18  2:16 PM  Page 46
Rule 5.09(b)(9) to 5.09(b)(12)47

Rule 5.09(b)(9) Comment: A runner may be deemed to have passed a preceding (i.e., lead) runner based on his actions or the actions of a preceding runner.

PLAY—Runners on second base and third base with one out.The runner from third base (i.e., the lead runner) makes an advance toward home and is caught in a rundown between third base and home plate.  Believing the lead runner will be tagged out, the runner at second base (i.e., the trailing runner)advances to third base.  Before being tagged, the lead runner runs back to and beyond third base toward left field.  At this time, the trailing runner has passed the lead runner as a result of the lead runner’s actions.  As a result, the trailing runner is out and third base is unoccupied.  The lead runner is entitled to third base if he returns to touch it before he is out, see Rule5.06(a)(1),  unless  he  is  declared  out  for  abandoning  the bases.

------

I will admit there is room for different interpretations here, however, the letter of the rule here matters in my opinion. First of all, everywhere else in the rules that I have seen where it says a "runner runs to" a base, it implies that he in fact touches/makes contact that base. You have not "run to" something if you never, in fact, reach it ... you are still running "toward" it ...

If the rule simply said "the lead runner runs back beyond third base toward left field" but left out "to and," then you would be correct ... however, the rule says both "back to (the base)" and "beyond (the base)" ... the "back to" would be an unnecessary part of the sentence/rule if touching the base were not required for the rule to apply ...

The play in the Comment there is just an illustration, it is not the rule itself. The rule 5.09b(9) is simply the sentence:

(9) He passes a preceding runner before such runner is out.

Nowhere in the example does it say that the trailing runner is safe if the runner goes "beyond" the bag without touching or going "to" the bag. It is just illustrating one specific scenario for which 5.09(b).9 applies. According to the rule, Sanchez is out as soon as he passes Stanton. I believe the difference between "to" and "beyond" is immaterial in the example.

 

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42 minutes ago, Moshagge3 said:

The Orioles should have played under protest. Fortunately, they won, but what if they hadn't?

I thought they did protest. If they did, and the protest was upheld, they would have to replace the game from that point, like the George Brett pine tar game.

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2 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

The problem is that Stanton doesn't give himself up immediately. He goes past the bag by a step or two, then turns away from the field. The instant he goes past the bag, Sanchez is out. Then Stanton is out.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bs-sp-orioles-yankees-rundown-20180406-story.html

After the game, crew chief Jerry Meals told a pool reporter that the umpires erred in making the call the way they did. Third base umpire Ron Kulpa called Stanton out for leaving the base path.

“As soon as Stanton ran by him into foul territory there, [Kulpa] had him out for abandoning his effort, which gave Sanchez the base so when they tagged him, he wasn’t out,” Meals said. “That was our explanation on the field. We were incorrect. The ruling is when a runner from second, in that situation, when a runner from second has occupied third and the lead runner goes beyond third base to the outfield or wherever, runs past it, the interpretation is the runner from second is past that runner, the lead runner, so he is out automatically without being tagged. Sánchez should have been out automatically for passing Stanton. Then, Stanton had the right to come back and touch third before being tagged or be called out for abandoning his effort.”

Tbh, what Kulpa thought the rule was made the most sense to me.  I'm even more impressed than usual with Buck on that one.  I figured the ump was right.    

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1 hour ago, Moshagge3 said:

The Orioles should have played under protest. Fortunately, they won, but what if they hadn't?

Remember back in the day, Earl used to have several games a year played under protest - I don't think he won any of them and probably only succeeded in pissing off the umps - but... I think in the back of their minds - if it was questionable, the umps would give calls to Earl just to avoid him protesting it and pitching a fit - so to speak.  And I gotta admit, I always liked it when Earl did that.  He was sticking up for his guys.   

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2 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

I don't think touching the base has anything to do with it. If Sanchez was in the middle of the basepath and Stanton passes him, Sanchez is out. It just happens that he is standing on the base.

This. 

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29 minutes ago, interloper said:

The base is part of the base path, I would think, by definition. 

Yes, and by not touching the base and heading into foul territory, he voluntarily went out of the base path ... meaning Sanchez never passed him ...

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1 minute ago, OrioleMagic79 said:

Yes, and by not touching the base and heading into foul territory, he voluntarily went out of the base path ... meaning Sanchez never passed him ...

He went over the base first. 

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