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George...COME ON

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Fair enough. And I'm not a Ramon apologist, don't get me wrong. Far from it. Tired of watching him lollygag it. But Sherrill has a point about not locating the pitch, too, you know?

But Wedge, neither I nor VA Tech have exonerated Sherrill from throwing the pitch. We both agree it's ultimately his fault. He has every right to shake off the catcher and ultimately, he has to execute the pitch. No argument from me at all on this point.

BTW, I completely expected a stand up guy like Sherrill to say exactly what he said. He's never going to come out and say, "I can't believe Ramon had me throw that pitch in that location for the third straight time. I really should have shaken him off."

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How many times earlier in the year did we see Adam Jones swing and miss at three straight breaking balls on the outside corner? It happens all the time in baseball. There's a few schools of thought -- some say that once you show a guy the same pitch back-to-back, you have to change it up. Others say keep throwing it until he proves he can hit it.

I think both are valid, and certainly an argument could be made that Ramon should have switched it up, but I can't place any blame on the catcher when the pitcher misses his location by 2-3 feet.

S-I-T-U-A-T-I-O-N

I really don't get how you don't understand this. Every situation is not the same. Three straight pitches in the same location in a 5-2 game in the fourth inning against a rookie is not the same as the one last night. If you don't or won't accept that fact, that's fine, but really I don't have much else to say on this.

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But Wedge, neither I nor VA Tech have exonerated Sherrill from throwing the pitch. We both agree it's ultimately his fault. He has every right to shake off the catcher and ultimately, he has to execute the pitch. No argument from me at all on this point.

BTW, I completely expected a stand up guy like Sherrill to say exactly what he said. He's never going to come out and say, "I can't believe Ramon had me throw that pitch in that location for the third straight time. I really should have shaken him off."

True, but I think I'd pay to see someone do that. :D

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S-I-T-U-A-T-I-O-N

I really don't get how you don't understand this. Every situation is not the same. Three straight pitches in the same location in a 5-2 game in the fourth inning against a rookie is not the same as the one last night. If you don't or won't accept that fact, that's fine, but really I don't have much else to say on this.

Yes they both shoulder the blame.

Yes, an 0-2 slider was a horrible mutual conclusion at which to arrive.

Yes, Sherrill hung it. Again.

My problems with Ramon Hernandez run much deeper than last night. His defensive is flat out bad, his arm is inaccurate and his delivery is slow. I have a bit of a problem with Ramon's work ethic and I have for awhile now. He just doesn't seem to fit in with this team and I'm sure Trembley has noted his shortcomings. Quiroz is no long term solution, but given the fact that Hernandez is putting up a whopping .672 OPS... how much worse could he be?

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I don't think there is anything remotely easy about intentionally throwing a pitch that breaks more than a foot on a plane that will allow it to hit the ground 60 feet away as it reaches the hitter. I remember bouncing lots of pitches in front of the plate and leaving a lot of pitches thigh high in those exact scenarios. I would much rather try to locate my fastball or my change up than my slider or curveball. I don't think I've ever played with a guy who felt better about his ability to locate his slider than his ability to locate his fastball, but maybe I have a bad memory. ;)

We disagree. There isn't a doubt in my mind that it is an easy pitch to throw for a MLB pitcher.

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S-I-T-U-A-T-I-O-N

I really don't get how you don't understand this. Every situation is not the same. Three straight pitches in the same location in a 5-2 game in the fourth inning against a rookie is not the same as the one last night. If you don't or won't accept that fact, that's fine, but really I don't have much else to say on this.

I do understand the point. I've also read vatech's arguments in the other thread (which I believe was now merged into this one) and I understand those points as well. I get the argument you guys are making, I really do. 0-2 count, batter has seen the timing, danger of hanging the pitch, setting the pitcher up to fail, etc. IMO, though, all of those arguments go out the window when a pitch like that is thrown. Just my $0.02

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I love the fact that tonight is George Sherrill t-shirt night.

Last night apparently it was George Sherrill glove night... :wedge: :laughlol:

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Last night apparently it was George Sherrill glove night... :wedge: :laughlol:

Yes, one lucky fan will receive a game used George Sherrill glove...sponsored by the Kansas City Royals.

That's kind of an exclusive promotion, don't you think? :scratchchinhmm:

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Utterly idiotic pitch selection and placement by Ramon Hernandez. As soon as I saw him go down and in I was like, "No way!"

Sherrill throws two sliders down and in and had guys swinging through high fastballs all day. Olivio is a pull hitter. A Single-A moron catcher knows to call the fastball away after the first two pitches.

Yes, George Sherrill shares the blame for not being smart enough to shake off a ridiculous pitch selection. But I repeat, this is the exact reason why a lot of pitchers don't like being caught by Ramon. His stupid pitch selections are part of his legacy and this one just blew the second straight game.

HE threw the pitch. Not Ramon

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HE threw the pitch. Not Ramon

They share the blame. It was a horrible conclusion at which to arrive... which we have covered ad nauseum after the quoted post.

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Even if Ramon called for the worst pitch of all time, couldn't George merely have shaken him off if he wasn't comfortable with the pitch?

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Even if Ramon called for the worst pitch of all time, couldn't George merely have shaken him off if he wasn't comfortable with the pitch?

This can be overanalyzed to death, the point is had Sherrill executed on that pitch and the pitch that he made on Sunday, we'd have two more wins and he'd have two more saves. He just left them hanging instead of having them drop to the dirt and that was the difference. He said it: "same location, same pitch." It will be interesting to see if he goes back to his fastball more instead of his breaking stuff which he said he relied too much on...

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This makes complete sense. Unless of course you know anything about pitch selection and location. ;)

Seriously though, why in the world do you think it's ok to throw the same pitch in the same location three times in a row?

Um, because I've seen it work about a thousand times? (Is that a good answer? ;-)

Back during what I call The Dark Ages (before MLB-EI), I lived in the ATL area forever, which means I watched the Braves all the time. (Plus, one of my ex-students was the usher in the section behind the plate, and he'd let me go in and grab an empty seat, just so it wasn't one of Hank's or Schuerholz's, because they watched on TV and would get steamed if some-unauthorized-body was in their seats.)

Here's what I saw Maddux and Glavine do all the time:

  • Pitch 1: low-and-away, 3" off the plate.
  • *If* that turned out to be a strike, then Pitch 2 would be lower-and-away-er, 6" off the plate, guaranteed.
  • *If* the guy was a dope and swung at that one too, then Pitch 3 would be *exactly* like Pitch 2, just to see how much of a dope the hitter was.

They did it all the time.

Now, I've never been a pitcher, but I was a LL-C, which doesn't prove anything, it just means that I watch what C's do. And I think this whole thing about how you never throw more-or-less the same pitch 3 times in a row is getting way overblown. I think that rule-of-thumb is completely true... *if* you're talking about pitches that are supposed to be either strikes or almost-strikes. But the last 2 pitches were not. The last 2 pitches were supposed to be so much un-strikes that nobody (not even Vlad) could hit the dang things. IMO, the only thing the least bit unusual about this sequence was that they were all low-and-in rather than low-and-away. If they were all 3 low-and-away, then I don't think anybody would be complaining about the decision, only the execution.

Look, I could buy what you and vatech are saying if the problem was that it was a matter of inches. But it was not a matter of inches, it was a matter of Mr. Hat throwing the guy a fat one and missing the target by 2 freakin' feet.

The main thing I hate about this conversation is that I find myself (*gulp*) defending the job that Ramon did behind the plate. As you may know, I *never* defend the job Ramon does behind the plate, because I think he doesn't really know what the hell he's doing behind the plate. But here I am, doing it anyway. Which, combined with the fact that we're spending a dozen pages arguing about 1 measly pitch, just shows you how crazy baseball is ;-) Do people do things like this about soccer?

Edited by rshackelford

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You mean they don't have the magic intangibles that'll allow them to win 75% of one-run games indefinitely? Doggone it, I've hitched my whole belief system to intangibles, and now this?

Yeah this whole pitch selection/catcher-pitcher relationship/human interaction has gotta be wayyyyyyy over your head.

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With all due respect, this whole discussion about pitch selection and the catcher is irrelevant. Sherill hung a ball in the zone on both home runs. If those pitches had broken the way they were supposed to, we'd be celebrating a 3 game winning streak. I don't blame Sherill. As a pitcher, you get away with some of those and some you get punished for. In his case, he payed the ultimate price two games in a row. If he'd been protecting a 3-run lead it wouldn't have mattered so much. The story is the offense not the pitching.

Also, can someone give me a list of the "lots of pitchers" that don't like Ramon to catch them? 3 or 4 would do.

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