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George...COME ON

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My 5 year old son was a bit down this morning after looking at the sports page. When I asked him what was going on, he said "George Sherrill threw his baseball glove into the crowd. Now he doesn't have a glove and can't play for the Orioles anymore."

I explained that he's got extras, and now my son really really wants to be an O.

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I kept saying, "Waste at least 2 pitches here...."

Then the replay of Sunday. Hanging the slider was a physical error, but calling for it a third time was also a mistake IMO, though not a horribly egregious one.

I am getting more and more impatient with Ramon Hernandez behind the plate. He is lazy. I've seen way too many ole's and he takes a long time to get rid of the ball. Thank God we have one of the best overall position prospects in the majors a step or two away. We desperately need a take charge catcher.

Some dude called in to Anita Marks yesterday and said not only should they bring up Wieters now, they should give him a chance to see if he could play SS, too...was raving about how he reminds him alot of Ripken, etc.

I just kept thinking, with our catcher situation, I'd rather he just caught. SS can be handled elsewhere.

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Sherrill should have accepted responsibility. I'm not sure that anyone feels differently. This isn't a binary situation though. It isn't either Sherrill is responsible or Ramon is responsible. Responsibility is shared between pitcher and catcher and it should be. Ultimately, the pitcher is the guy who accepted the suggestion and executed the pitch so he is surely the bearer of the larger portion of responsibility, but that doesn't mean the catcher is exempt from scrutiny.

Ramon called a poor sequence of pitches in that at bat and during several others during the game IMO. I'm not whipping him because I don't like him. I'm calling it like I see it. I've explained thoroughly why his pitch sequences were suspect in the other thread. If I'm wrong in my logic on them, I'd like someone to present the flaws in my logic. I'll happily debate about the logic and admit I'm wrong if proven wrong. Otherwise, it'd be nice to stop being dismissed with a wave of the hand and a statement that says "oh, you guys are too illogical and unintelligent to realize that you've slipped in a crowd mentality". That comes across as a fairly dismissive, condescending stance to me.

I'll refute your logic. Olivo is a fastball hitter who had just swung at the exact same breaking ball and had missed badly both times. Had Sherrill located his pitch even somewhat correctly, at worst Olivo would've taken the pitch and the count would have been 1-2, and at best he would've made an out the game would've been over. People say you can't throw the same pitch 3 times in a row, but I've sure seen it work plenty of times.

Sorry, Sherrilll deserves 100% of the blame for that AB. I'm not trying to dump on him, I like the guy, but there's no way, IMO, you can blame Ramon at all.

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Pipe down? Type more softly? Wow! Pretty soon you'll have me 10 to 1 on name calling. Nice work.

Maybe he wants you to use a smaller font?

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That isn't what I think at all. The pitch would haven't caused a problem if it came in shoe high or lower. That isn't the same as the call was fine. When you HAVE to throw a pitch in such a way that it looks like a strike but becomes a ball in order to succeed, the pressure has just been increased dramatically on the pitcher. That is why guys who rely on good split fingered fastballs as their out pitch with no other ML quality offering tend to struggle mightily (Steve Traschel anyone?). Now, add to that the fact that this was the third one in a row AND it was called in the same location and the hitter was only ONE of three criteria being used to get him out.

The three parts of pitching:

Speed, that is disrupting timing - Clearly the third straight 78ish mph pitch wasn't going to disrupt his timing

Movement - The hitter had seen the slider movement three straight times (and no other pitches at all) so his mind's eye could track trajectory more effectively

Location - This was the only thing that pitch had going for it if executed well

That slider was terrible but he would have likely gotten away with it on the first pitch because of the surprise factor (the ball likely would have taken it or been way in front like Olivo on the first pitch) or after a fastball in a different location on the previous pitch (again, the eyeline change plus speed change would have made the difference).

Sherrill threw nothing but fastballs to the previous hitter, Guillen, until he got him to 3-2 when he got him to pop out weakly on the slider. Guillen is a far superior hitter to Olivo and the slider that got him wasn't particularly well located. Why did it get him? I think it had a lot to do with the fact that the previous fastball was eye high and Guillen was surprised by the pitch speed, location (relative to the previous pitch), and movement. It had the trifecta going for it in other words.

Again, it is fairly clear that this wasn't the right pitch to call when we all seem to agree that success was predicated on the pitch being in the dirt. He could have thrown a duck up there in the dirt and the hitter isn't going to hit it, because the ball is in the dirt. That is hardly a vote of confidence for the pitch type.

Yes, that appears to make a difference on this board to some of us, but I can only speak for myself. I don't think I do that at all, but it appears to me in previous posts that you believe I do. OK, your prerogative

A slider in the dirt isn't hard to throw. It is rare for a MLB pitcher to miss by a few feet. Especially when they aren't aim for anything but the dirt. A fastball on the outside corner could easily be missed and catch some plate.

Your the batter. You have a 0-2 count on in the Bot of the 9th down by one. You are going to expand your strikezone because you don't want to end the game on a strikeout.

As a pitcher you don't mind throwing a slider because it isn't hard to throw that pitch for a ball. It was raining so maybe he didn't have a good grip on the ball (this could be the main reason why it was off by so much. I don't expect Sherrill to be one to make excuses.). The main reason why a slider is so effective is because it looks just like a fastball out of the pitchers hand. If the pitch starts off knee high that batter could say low fastball. He hasn't see Sherrill fastball yet and doesn't know what it looks like.

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I don't know about you guys, but from an "indication of future performance" perspective, I'd rather see him blow two saves with home runs on mistake pitches than see him give up several walks and get hammered with line drive singles and doubles.

He didn't really pitch that poorly in either game. Got the first two outs both times. He probably planned on pitching around Young to some extent to get to Belliard. He made two bad pitches; I'm not ready to believe the sky is falling. If we're up one in the 9th today, I'd send him right back out.

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Some dude called in to Anita Marks yesterday and said not only should they bring up Wieters now, they should give him a chance to see if he could play SS, too...was raving about how he reminds him alot of Ripken, etc.

I just kept thinking, with our catcher situation, I'd rather he just caught. SS can be handled elsewhere.

Wieters is 3 for 14 at Bowie....I don't think he's ready just yet. :rolleyes:

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Well, except for the part about the guy expecting a 3rd slider (which I can't imagine), I completely agree.
  • The 1st one was low and inside. IMO, nobody but Vlad could've clobbered it.
  • The 2nd one was even moreso. IMO, it was even Vlad-proof.
  • The 3rd one was supposed to be just like the 2nd one: Vlad-proof.

I see nothing wrong with throwing the 3rd pitch just like the 2nd one.

The whole purpose was to see if the guy would be a dope and swing at it, just like he did with the 2nd one. He's a K-machine, why not?

The whole problem was that it wound up nowhere close to where it was supposed to be.

It was supposed to be inside at his feet, not belt-high over the outer portion of the plate.

Nobody can accuse me of thinking Ramon is a very good C.

I think Ramon has his more than his share of C-brain problems.

But I don't think this was one of them. IMO, it was 100% a pitch-execution problem.

This makes complete sense. Unless of course you know anything about pitch selection and location. ;)

Seriously though, why in the world do you think it's ok to throw the same pitch in the same location three times in a row? That makes no sense at all.

Another thing people that are supporting this call are forgetting that it was 0-2. Even if Ramon wanted the ball in the dirt low and inside, he's asking his pitcher to be perfect in his execution. Miss a little and it's hung out over the plate or hits the batter on the foot.

Now, if it's 3-2, different story. A catcher has to weigh what pitches the pitcher is using effectively as well as what he just threw during the at bat.

Even if Ramon was going for the "He'll never expect another one in the exact same spot" theory, the risks of the pitch selection and location were just horrible in my opinion.

With two outs and an 0-2 count in the bottom of the ninth of a one-run ball game, it's inexcusable to call anything that could be remotely hung out over the plate if the pitcher misses his execution.

I agree with you and the others that say it was bad execution by Sherrill. Absolutely bad. But it comes down to the fact that a good catcher would not allow his pitcher to be put into a situation where the slightest missed execution would result in a hung slider to a pull hitter trying to a pull a home run.

It's all about the situation, count, the hitter at the plate and the pitcher on the mound, and in my mind, Hernandez failed miserably in assessing the situation and put his pitcher in a poor position that he did not need to be in at 0-2.

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Wieters is 3 for 14 at Bowie....I don't think he's ready just yet. :rolleyes:

Don't roll your eyes at me, I was merely bringing up the fervor of that caller as an anecdotal aside.

That being said, I'd almost rather see Wieters struggle a bit at the ML level because at least he'd be trying...

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No, don't get me wrong. Ramon is not a good game caller. By any stretch of the imagination.

But when the pitcher flat out says he didn't locate the pitch at all, well, would it have mattered had he called something different? Well, it might have, but I'm playing devil's advocate. What if Ramon did call for the up and away fastball looking for the chase, and George doesn't locate it and it grooves? We're possibly looking at the same outcome...especially with a guy with a disturbing FB/GB ratio.

No, then it would obviously be on the pitcher. Of course Sehrrill is going to take responsibility and he should, he threw the pitch. But like VATech and I have been trying to get through, it does not mean that Ramon put his pitcher in the best position to be successful.

Sherrill had either missed with his fastball up or had a batter swing through the pitch. I'm willing to take either of those outcomes on 0-2.

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I'll refute your logic. Olivo is a fastball hitter who had just swung at the exact same breaking ball and had missed badly both times. Had Sherrill located his pitch even somewhat correctly, at worst Olivo would've taken the pitch and the count would have been 1-2, and at best he would've made an out the game would've been over. People say you can't throw the same pitch 3 times in a row, but I've sure seen it work plenty of times.

Sorry, Sherrilll deserves 100% of the blame for that AB. I'm not trying to dump on him, I like the guy, but there's no way, IMO, you can blame Ramon at all.

A valid enough opinion, but you've obviously not listened or understood anything we've been saying. 0-2! Situation! You never throw a pitch even remotely close or in an area where if you miss the location it will be grooved. It's like rule number one in the catcher's manual under "How not to set up your pitcher to fail". ;)

Hey, like the guy who wants to play Wieters at SS, everyone is allowed an opinion. :D

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No, then it would obviously be on the pitcher. Of course Sehrrill is going to take responsibility and he should, he threw the pitch. But like VATech and I have been trying to get through, it does not mean that Ramon put his pitcher in the best position to be successful.

Sherrill had either missed with his fastball up or had a batter swing through the pitch. I'm willing to take either of those outcomes on 0-2.

Fair enough. And I'm not a Ramon apologist, don't get me wrong. Far from it. Tired of watching him lollygag it. But Sherrill has a point about not locating the pitch, too, you know?

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Seriously though, why in the world do you think it's ok to throw the same pitch in the same location three times in a row? That makes no sense at all.

How many times earlier in the year did we see Adam Jones swing and miss at three straight breaking balls on the outside corner? It happens all the time in baseball. There's a few schools of thought -- some say that once you show a guy the same pitch back-to-back, you have to change it up. Others say keep throwing it until he proves he can hit it.

I think both are valid, and certainly an argument could be made that Ramon should have switched it up, but I can't place any blame on the catcher when the pitcher misses his location by 2-3 feet.

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Yeah, I'm just going to have to completely disagree with this whole post. Your argument is that it is easier to control the location of a slider than to control the location of a fastball. I completely, fundamentally, and totally disagree with every fiber of my being. I could cite examples that would prove my position, but are you sure you don't want to retract this post first?

I think the key word is "dirt". It is easier to throw a slider in the dirt. Especially from a MLB pitcher who lives on his slider.

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