Jump to content
Old#5fan

While There is Not a Single Oriole I Would Refuse To Trade..

Recommended Posts

Markakis isn't all that early in his career. Frank was Rookie of the Year and hit 38 homers. at AGE 20!!!As someone else posted, and he never looked back. I don't see all that much improvement from Markakis. Until he can compare with the elite hitting outfielders in the league all who are either hitting three or four I just don't see where he is elite. Sorry. He is just a very good but not great player.
Go look at the stats I posted back before.

Your entire argument about Nick not being a good #3 hitter is because he struggled for a month and had to be moved out of that hole, something that never happened to Frank Robinson.

I posted about 5 months from Franks' first 3 seasons (mostly his 2nd and 3rd) that were about the same as Nick's May. And I also showed that Frank was moved out of the #3 hole when he was struggling.

Basically nothing you said was accurate.

Nobody expects Nick to be Frank Robinson, but he is one of the best young players in the game. You suggesting he isn't is simply a lie, or at best another of the numerous examples of you showing that you have no clue about baseball anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Go look at the stats I posted back before.

Your entire argument about Nick not being a good #3 hitter is because he struggled for a month and had to be moved out of that hole, something that never happened to Frank Robinson.

I posted about 5 months from Franks' first 3 seasons (mostly his 2nd and 3rd) that were about the same as Nick's May. And I also showed that Frank was moved out of the #3 hole when he was struggling.

Basically nothing you said was accurate.

Nobody expects Nick to be Frank Robinson, but he is one of the best young players in the game. You suggesting he isn't is simply a lie, or at best another of the numerous examples of you showing that you have no clue about baseball anymore.

Well, to me a definition of a "great" player is someone in the Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Mickey Mantle, Yaz, class. Heck, even Manny Ramirez I would consider great as a hitter. Markakis has a long, long, long way to ever get to that level. Could he? Sure. However, he also may not. The point is right now he isn't there so I don't consider him elite or great. Indeed I would agree that he is one of the better young players in the game. I just don't put the word "great" with Nick Markakis at this point in time, nor would I consider him off limits in a trade. If folks want to get mad at me for holding this view, fine, but I certainly am entitled to do so and my logic is not faulty. I just have higher standards for greatness than many of you. End of story, no need to get sore about it.

Edited by Old#5fan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, to me a definition of a "great" player is someone in the Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Mickey Mantle, Yaz, class. Heck, even Manny Ramirez I would consider great as a hitter. Markakis has a long, long, long way to ever get to that level. Could he? Sure. However, he also may not. The point is right now he isn't there so I don't consider him elite or great. Indeed I would agree that he is one of the better young players in the game. I just don't put the word "great" with Nick Markakis at this point in time, nor would I consider him off limits in a trade. If folks want to get mad at me for holding this view, fine, but I certainly am entitled to do so and my logic is not faulty. I just have higher standards for greatness than many of you.

At least you make some sense in this post. If this whole argument is just based on the semantics of the word great, than ok.

You are right. As of right now, Markakis isn't on those guys level. YET. But he is only 24. And you did just name a bunch of Hall of Famers. I don't think anyone is putting Nick in the Hall, but he is progressing on hsi way to be in that discussion.

And his greatness has nothing to do with where he hits in the order.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You talk about high standards, then you mention Olson and Liz and that you hang on them because "I think good young pitching is the key to any rebuild of the team though, which is why I give them more of a preference."

I understand your comments about the greats and agree concerning them, but if you think Liz (miserable mechanics that make him completely incapable of consistent control) and Olson (too much to talk about there) represent 'good pitching', then I see a serious flaw in your estimation of talent.

End of my story, no need to get sore about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You talk about high standards, then you mention Olson and Liz and that you hang on them because "I think good young pitching is the key to any rebuild of the team though, which is why I give them more of a preference."

I understand your comments about the greats and agree concerning them, but if you think Liz (miserable mechanics that make him completely incapable of consistent control) and Olson (too much to talk about there) represent 'good pitching', then I see a serious flaw in your estimation of talent.

End of my story, no need to get sore about it.

Not to get off topic but as I posted in the game thread, Olson got screwed by Mora's incredibly bad fielding in today's game. Who knows, had Mora merely made plays he should make in his sleep Olson might have ended up being okay.

AS far as Liz, he may just need experience as does Olson. I think Liz has electric stuff and could be a very good pitcher some day. I don't think you trade that away easily. Just look at John Maine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
At least you make some sense in this post. If this whole argument is just based on the semantics of the word great, than ok.

You are right. As of right now, Markakis isn't on those guys level. YET. But he is only 24. And you did just name a bunch of Hall of Famers. I don't think anyone is putting Nick in the Hall, but he is progressing on hsi way to be in that discussion.

[i]And his greatness has nothing to do with where he hits in the order.

[/i]

Oh, but I think it does. I haven't time to research it but I would bet there are far, far more HOF outfielders who hit third or fourth the majority of their career than hit second. In fact, I doubt there are many at all who didn't hit third or fourth mostly. If he wants to be a hall of famer he better learn to be able to hit third or cleanup and do it soon. The two spot is a place for a very good but not great hitter to bat in a lineup. A great player usually bats third or fourth and drives in a ton of runs, carrying his team. He also wins an MVP award or several. So far, Markakis is still well in the distance and always will be until he can hold down the three or four spot and do it in an outstanding fashion.

Edited by Old#5fan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[/i]

Oh, but I think it does. I haven't time to research it but I would bet there are far, far more HOF outfielders who hit third or fourth the majority of their career than hit second. In fact, I doubt there are many at all who didn't hit third or fourth mostly. If he wants to be a hall of famer he better learn to be able to hit third or cleanup and do it soon.

But they were Hall of Famers because they hit really well, regardless of where they were at in the line-up. If it suits the Orioles best to have Nick hitting second, than he'll hit second. If it suits them best to hit him third, then he'll hit third.

Just because he doesn't hit third for us doesn't mean he isn't a great hitter, it just means that he fits better for us somewhere else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But they were Hall of Famers because they hit really well, regardless of where they were at in the line-up. If it suits the Orioles best to have Nick hitting second, than he'll hit second. If it suits them best to hit him third, then he'll hit third.

Just because he doesn't hit third for us doesn't mean he isn't a great hitter, it just means that he fits better for us somewhere else.

Sorry, but yes it does. However, in fairness there are no great hitters on the current Orioles team and he would indeed be the closest to one. AS such he should be batting third. The problem is he didn't produce like he needed to when he hit there. Melving Mora is batting 333 with RISP and hitting terribly overall, yet he is a better choice because of that to bat third. Markakis needs to elevate his hitting with RISP from the three spot. He needs to do so to ever become truly elite. I would also bet money that a number three or four hitter generally draws a bigger salary than a number two hitter overall in major league baseball. Perhaps Markakis knew this and just couldn't handle the pressure knowing that he needed to produce to get the big money as a three hole hitter.

Edited by Old#5fan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, but yes it does. However, in fairness there are no great hitters on the current Orioles team and he would indeed be the closest to one. AS such he should be batting third. The problem is he didn't produce like he needed to when he hit there. Melving Mora is batting 333 with RISP and hitting terribly overall, yet he is a better choice because of that to bat third. Markakis needs to elevate his hitting with RISP from the three spot. He needs to do so to ever become truly elite.

So from what you just said, you don't think the best hitter on the team should hit third, you think the hitter who hits the best with RISP should bat third.

I think you're best hitters should hit at the top of the line-up, but it depends on how many really good hitters you have on where they should hit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, to me a definition of a "great" player is someone in the Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Mickey Mantle, Yaz, class. Heck, even Manny Ramirez I would consider great as a hitter. Markakis has a long, long, long way to ever get to that level. Could he? Sure. However, he also may not. The point is right now he isn't there so I don't consider him elite or great. Indeed I would agree that he is one of the better young players in the game. I just don't put the word "great" with Nick Markakis at this point in time, nor would I consider him off limits in a trade. If folks want to get mad at me for holding this view, fine, but I certainly am entitled to do so and my logic is not faulty. I just have higher standards for greatness than many of you. End of story, no need to get sore about it.

You mention Clemente and Kaline. Clemente's OPS's for his first three seasons were .666, .761 and .637. He didn't have an .800+ OPS season until his sixth season, and finished his career with a .834 OPS.

Kaline's OPS in his first two seasons were .657 and .652 before skyrocketing to .967 in season three - only to drop to .913, .821 and .864 the next three seasons. His lifetime OPS was .857.

Although he had a fast start to his career, in his third season, Frank Robinson had an OPS of .854. Nick Markakis, in his third season, has an OPS of .895.

Markakis's OPS in his first three seasons: .799, .848, .895; lifetime .843. His lifetime OPS is already higher than Yastrzemski (.841) and Clemente (.834), and only slightly below Kaline's (.857). Are you expecting Markakis to get worse?

I think it's ironic that you wrote, "Heck, even Manny Ramirez I would consider great as a hitter." Actually, Manny's lifetime OPS (.979) dwarfs Robinson's (.926), Clemente's (.834), or Kaline's (.857). I don't think you've actually looked closely at these player's actual numbers.

A number of posters a while back compared Markakis to Carl Yastrzemski. Carl's OPS in his first three seasons: .721, .832 and .894. Nick's first three seasons so far: .799, .848 and .895. Pretty similar, with the edge to Markakis! (Yastrzemski's lifetime OPS: .841.)

Regarding all this talk of the best hitter batting third, that's where he usually hits, but obviously not always. Suppose Huff, Markakis and Scott were all about .800 OPS - good, but not great. Then Brian Roberts (.855) would obviously be our best hitter. But you'd still bat him leadoff. You generally put your best all-around hitter batting third, but Roberts isn't a power hitter, so he doesn't bat third. Markakis has good power, but great on base percentage, so the tendency is to put him second instead of third, although he'd fit into both roles.

There are three obvious reasons why Nick most often bats second instead of third.

1. If he bats third, who's going to bat second? Mora? In the second half of the season, they may bring Jones up, but for now they want him hitting lower down so he can work on his hitting without the pressure.

2. If Nick bats third, then we jam him up with Huff and Scott, who are also lefties. That's the problem with a team where the three best power hitters are lefties.

3. While Nick has good power with a.497 SLG, he's even better in on base percentage, with a .397. What do you want with the first two players in the order? On base percentage.

-Larrytt

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So from what you just said, you don't think the best hitter on the team should hit third, you think the hitter who hits the best with RISP should bat third.

I think you're best hitters should hit at the top of the line-up, but it depends on how many really good hitters you have on where they should hit.

I think Dave Trembley saw that Markakis wasn't pulling his weight batting third and he had to move him. The move has definitely aided Markakis for whatever reason. I think the third and fourth place hitters need to be able to drive in runs. If a hitter bats 320 but with RISP hits 230, he won't work at the third spot. You would be better off to go with a guy hitting the reverse of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



Orioles Information


Orioles News and Information

Daily Organizational Boxscores
News

Tony's Takes

Orioles Roster Resource

Orioles Prospect Information

2021 Top 30 Prospects List

Prospect Scouting Reports

Statistics

2021 Orioles Stats

2021 Orioles Minor League Stats

Baseball Savant Stats






×
×
  • Create New...