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Trace21230

Tired of Trembley's Quick Hook

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SG is 100% correct. Guthrie should have been allowed to pitch the 8th inning. 1-2-3 seventh inning. Shades of Sam P. I am so mad right now.......well! I have been since this game ended tonight. I am still mad....almost an hour later. Why can't we get a manager that goes with what he sees. Yes! What he sees. I saw a pitcher that was in control of the game. I would have let him continue in the 8th inning.

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Ohhh, WTF. Ok, I didn't see that. Sometimes you just need a little bit of levity. I wouldn't kick my 5-year old. Now, as for the 15-year old, that's another story, but he basically asks for it, like most teenagers do.

Is 15 the cut-off? My boys are 4 and 2 and I'm looking for some guidance on when it's OK to put socks in their mouths or make them sleep in the back yard.

Thanks for your help. :thumbsup1:

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I think we should all just chill and admit that the decision to pull Guthrie in this game was a close call, not a no-brainer either way. DT made a call, and it didn't work out. If he'd left Guthrie in, maybe that woudn't have worked out, either.

Reasons to leave Guthrie in:

1. At 101 pitches, he could have at least gone after a batter or two. He always could have been pulled if he didn't get a quick out.

2. He had a pretty strong 7th inning, 2 K's and a pop-out.

3. He deserved the opportunity to protect his own lead.

4. JJ hasn't pitched that well lately, and may be getting run down from overwork.

Reasons to take him out:

1. Guthrie has faltered around 100 pitches several times.

2. The last batter in the 7th had a very long AB that may have tired him out.

3. JJ had not pitched the day before and so he was fresh.

4. JJ has done a great job this year in general.

5. JJ pitched very well on Tuesday but was let down by his defense.

Like I said, borderline call.

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I already mentioned Tuesday's game when he gave Cabrera the quick hook. If you want more, you seem to have the statistics at your fingertips; you can check it. A quick way to look would be to see which teams have the fewest complete games. I'm sure the Os are near the top (really the bottom) of the league in that regard because we have a whopping two, which were both thrown by Daniel Cabrera.

I don't *know* how many innings the Os bullpen has pitched in comparison to the rest of the league, but I'd bet it's pretty near the top.

You know, I've just spent the last 10 minutes or so reading your posts in this thread, and now my brain hurts. I think you turned it into mush. That's not nice.

You're seriously going to sit here and tell me that Guthrie's OPS being over 1.000 after 100 pitches is statistical gobbeldygook? Why, because it doesn't fit your arugment? Do you need a scapegoat for the game being lost that badly?

Guthrie's been awful after 100 pitches. I don't know why this is, but it's a fact. There's documented evidence. I've watched just about every game this year, and I know that when Guthrie gets over 100 pitches, it's time for him to go. So knowing that, knowing that Johnson has been solid all year long, knowing that Sherrill's there and fresh and has been, aside from the last couple of weeks, exceedingly reliable... you don't leave Guthrie in. Or you take SG's approach... leave him in, but as soon as he gives up a base runner, you pull him.

Regardless, Guthrie's not giving you a complete game tonight.

This isn't because Trembley has a quick hook. It's because Guthrie hasn't proven himself capable of getting out major league hitters once he breaks 100-110 pitches.

I'm sorry. I know you don't particularly care for statistics, but that's fact. I'm not going off of some gut feeling on this. Guthrie struggles when he goes late in games with high pitch counts. I agree with Paul. I'd rather have a fresh JJ and a fresh Sherrill go out there instead of Guthrie with 100+ pitches. It just didn't work out this time.

But blaming Trembley for the loss doesn't make a bit of sense for me. He didn't pitch the 8th or 9th innings.

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As for the bullpen, I believe that whatever issues they are now facing has come from overuse. Give the guys a break once in awhile and stop using them every, single night.

We should overuse the starters and push them beyond the point of when they've proven to be effective instead?

I don't think Trembley's using the bullpen because he has some OCD condition forcing him to use the bullpen a certain way. I think the starters force his hand.

Edited by J.D.

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I think we should all just chill and admit that the decision to pull Guthrie in this game was a close call, not a no-brainer either way. DT made a call, and it didn't work out. If he'd left Guthrie in, maybe that woudn't have worked out, either.

Reasons to leave Guthrie in:

1. At 101 pitches, he could have at least gone after a batter or two. He always could have been pulled if he didn't get a quick out.

2. He had a pretty strong 7th inning, 2 K's and a pop-out.

3. He deserved the opportunity to protect his own lead.

4. JJ hasn't pitched that well lately, and may be getting run down from overwork.

Reasons to take him out:

1. Guthrie has faltered around 100 pitches several times.

2. The last batter in the 7th had a very long AB that may have tired him out.

3. JJ had not pitched the day before and so he was fresh.

4. JJ has done a great job this year in general.

5. JJ pitched very well on Tuesday but was let down by his defense.

Like I said, borderline call.

In Gut's last four starts, Trembley's gone both ways:

Just some background

In Guthrie's last start, he was pitching well through six. Then he put two runners on to start the seventh before giving way to Bukvich. Giving Guthrie the extra inning here didn't work out well.

Vs. Washington, he went eight. Bradford came in for the ninth and pitched a 1-2-3 inning. Pulling Guthrie worked here.

In Guthrie's start in Chicago, he was rolling in a similar manner as tonight, perhaps better. He had retired nine straight since allowing a homer in the 4th. He came out in the seventh inning with approx. 80 pitches. He quickly gave up two singles and a three-run homer. In this case, trotting Guthrie out for the extra inning was the wrong move.

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RShack - If this is meant toward any comments I've made...

Nah, it wasn't about you.

It's about the recent onslaught of people bailing out, looking for somebody to hang, saying how the team's going in the toilet for the rest of the season, yada-yada.

Then, the folks who want to trade almost-everybody act like the recent rough patch is somehow proof of something.

The team has composure, it's just that a whole lot of supposedly die-hard fans don't.

Their faith in the team appears to be no deeper than a thin plastic veneer.

When the going gets rough, they fold like a house of cards.

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I'm convinced Guthrie was either told or pulled himself after the bottom of the 7th. Everyone knew going into the top of the 8th JJ was pitching the bottom of the 8th. The only thing from my prospective you can get on DT about is if, assuming Guthrie had no say in the matter, he told Guthrie after 7 he was done. Yes, he could have said nothing and waited to see how the top of the 8th played out before making his decision or even planned on sending Guthrie out in a 1 run game. Again though, and I know I'm harping on it, this was a crucial game and DT wanted to give himself the best chance to win at any cost. This wasn't the game to try and squeeze one more inning out of a starter to save the pen, like someone said Guthrie wasn't pitching a complete game anyway. I just don't see on paper or as a gut feeling how going to JJ wasn't the right move. I get as nervous and worried as anyone that we are going to blow games but I know at the time I was confident we were going to win going to the bottom of the 8th.

Edited by ccbird

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Really? Has Trembley ever allowed Guthrie to pitch over 100 pitches? How are we supposed to build his endurance to over 100 pitches if he's never left in?

Guthrie was at over 100 pitches..he has a long history of fatigue after 100 pitches. Johnson,easily our best man in the pen gets to start an inning instead of trying to put out a fire. He didnt do it. Then Sherrill didnt get it done either.Both pitchers were "rested" and asked to do what they are paid to do.

I understand how you can point the finger at DT, but J.J. was awful and so was Sherrill. If they do their jobs, the Orioles salvage a win.They didnt. Period. Besides, you dont know if Guthrie told him he was feeling a little gassed.Fault Dave? Not me. This one was on the bullpen. And throw in another crummy defensive game from Ramon and crappy base running. A ridiculous loss. Humiliating!

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I think we should all just chill and admit that the decision to pull Guthrie in this game was a close call, not a no-brainer either way. DT made a call, and it didn't work out. If he'd left Guthrie in, maybe that woudn't have worked out, either.

Reasons to leave Guthrie in:

1. At 101 pitches, he could have at least gone after a batter or two. He always could have been pulled if he didn't get a quick out.

2. He had a pretty strong 7th inning, 2 K's and a pop-out.

3. He deserved the opportunity to protect his own lead.

4. JJ hasn't pitched that well lately, and may be getting run down from overwork.

Reasons to take him out:

1. Guthrie has faltered around 100 pitches several times.

2. The last batter in the 7th had a very long AB that may have tired him out.

3. JJ had not pitched the day before and so he was fresh.

4. JJ has done a great job this year in general.

5. JJ pitched very well on Tuesday but was let down by his defense.

Like I said, borderline call.

It's too early to turn the light of sanity on Frobby, the cockroaches need to run around like crazy in the dark for a while longer after this one.:laughlol:

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From time to time, somebody will claim that some players read stuff here.

I really hope that's not true, especially lately when people are melting down left-and-right and saying dopey things.

If there are any Orioles reading this, I hereby apologize for the idiotic stuff you've been reading.

Many of us believe in you, it's just that a lot of folks wet their pants pretty easily.

They're athletes, they for the most part understand why fans are fans and why they act the way they do. 99% of players could care less what fans think because we simply don't know what it's like to play competitevly at the highest level day in and day out. We have a lot of smart, intellectual fans here at OH but as far as i know not a one of us played at the highest level. So while we can talk a good game, we most likely aren't getting anything more than a chuckle from anyone in an O's uniform.

Edited by ccbird

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Trembley is in an impossible situation. He doesn't have anyone in the bullpen right now who can protect a lead. Until that changes, the only way the O's can win is to get a complete game from their starter or to get so far ahead that their bullpen can't blow it.

It's extremely frustrating to watch, and it must be even more frustrating for the players, but it's not the manager's fault that nobody in the bullpen is pitching well.

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I had the same feeling on Tuesday when Trembley gave Cabrera the early hook with a 6-2 lead. I knew we'd lose that game and I knew we'd lose tonight's game.

This is a familiar feeling.

If you know what's going to happen, and you know it's going to be bad...why do you leave the TV on??? :scratchchinhmm:

Once again, I'm forced to call shenanigans!

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You guys all rave about how smart JG is...How good he is. And you are telling me he couldn't have been successful if DT said, i change my mind, go back out there?

LOL...Talk about a bunch of bs and inconsistency.

managers shouldnt change their minds when they make a decision they should stick with it. When managers or people in general start changing their minds thats when they get into trouble. you have to have confidence in your decisions otherwise you will not get anything done.

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Whether it's 5 or 6 changes nothing about the wrongheadedness of DT yanking Guthrie in the 7th after 100 pitches.

Try and understand that if you can tear yourself away from Baseball Digest for a moment. :scratchchinhmm:

Were you sitting in the dugout? Did you get a TV feed that no one else did showing Trembley ripping the numbers off Guthrie's jersey and kicking him down the tunnel to the showers? An audio feed of him saying: "Guthrie...done!"???

Do you really, really, really think that Trembley just randomly pulled this decision out of his a$$...just for the fun of it???

Wait...I've read your other posts. You probably do believe just that.

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