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FanSince88

Either overhaul the starting pitching development staff, or stop burning high draft picks on pitchers

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Time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time 

we are told by this front office that the next "ace" is just around the corner.  

And yeah I get it, TINSTAAP and all that.  

But please.  Something is broken with how this organization develops pitchers.  This hasn't just happened a few times.  It. Happens. Every. Frickin. Time.  We are told the next ace is here, they are paraded through the yard, and then they get rocked, again and again and again.  Sure there are some rays of hope here and there.  But really, Gausman had the highest WHIP in the majors most of last year and Bundy is a now basically a batting practice pitcher against all but he most inept offenses.  There have been no aces since Mussina in the early 90s.  There haven't really been any #2 starters either.  Mid-rotation at best, and even most of that have been castoffs from other organizations.  Meanwhile, even bad teams like Tampa Bay, Cleveland, and the White Sox occasionally developed great starting pitching.  

Either bring in an army of pitching gurus in ALL LEVELS of the organization and let them call the shots across the board, or just stop wasting time, energy, and draft picks on "high level' pitching prospects that never seem to work out.  

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10 minutes ago, Finisher said:

Haven't had a true ace since the 90s.

Indians and Astros have 3 or 4 of them each right now.

Can anyone name another team that has gone even remotely as long without a legit TOR arm? It is preposterous to be so bad at this.

Then you watch McDowell trot out there one in a while like he can do something,....I'm sure everyone below him is just as incompetent.

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It’s crazy that they seem to be able to produce good to great bullpen arms on a regular basis. I don’t blame them for Bundy because of injuries or Matusz because something went wrong between his ears but the rest is a mystery.  Bedard and Gausman were passable twos for stretches.

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45 minutes ago, Finisher said:

Haven't had a true ace since the 90s.

Indians and Astros have 3 or 4 of them each right now.

Can anyone name another team that has gone even remotely as long without a legit TOR arm? It is preposterous to be so bad at this.

Bedard was a true ace IMO. When healthy, which was always an issue with him.

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1 hour ago, FanSince88 said:

Time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time 

we are told by this front office that the next "ace" is just around the corner.  

And yeah I get it, TINSTAAP and all that.  

But please.  Something is broken with how this organization develops pitchers.  This hasn't just happened a few times.  It. Happens. Every. Frickin. Time.  We are told the next ace is here, they are paraded through the yard, and then they get rocked, again and again and again.  Sure there are some rays of hope here and there.  But really, Gausman had the highest WHIP in the majors most of last year and Bundy is a now basically a batting practice pitcher against all but he most inept offenses.  There have been no aces since Mussina in the early 90s.  There haven't really been any #2 starters either.  Mid-rotation at best, and even most of that have been castoffs from other organizations.  Meanwhile, even bad teams like Tampa Bay, Cleveland, and the White Sox occasionally developed great starting pitching.  

Either bring in an army of pitching gurus in ALL LEVELS of the organization and let them call the shots across the board, or just stop wasting time, energy, and draft picks on "high level' pitching prospects that never seem to work out.  

Yes. 

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1 hour ago, Finisher said:

Haven't had a true ace since the 90s.

Indians and Astros have 3 or 4 of them each right now.

Can anyone name another team that has gone even remotely as long without a legit TOR arm? It is preposterous to be so bad at this.

On the contrary, the top guys pitching for the Astros right now were not developed by them and Corey Kluber is the only TOR type (IMO) developed by the Indians as Bauer spent his development years in Arizona.

I think there is generally an overestimation on the amount of TOR starters in the league at any time as far as true Ace ability goes. Few teams develop Ace’s, but we have had difficulty developing starters whatsoever, it seems. Gausman, Bundy, Tillman and maybe Gonzalez are all that come to mind in the last 5 years or so. 

All this being said, I do think with a firm rebuilding plan in place, we are more likely to graduate (and less likely to trade away) some pitchers in the coming years, especially given the last few drafts focus on pitching talent.

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I’m convinced that Buck is the ultimate source of the pitching issues.  Before Buck got here, our former Calvary was developing well under Rick Kranitz, and then Buck brought in his guy Mark Connor, who screwed up our young pitchers and then conveniently quit after 3 months on the job.  Then Rick Adair took over and continued to screw up our young Calvary, resulting in Arrieta getting traded, Matusz moving to the bullpen after failing as a starter, and Britton failing as a starter and only reviving his career as a dominant reliever because of the foresight of Dave Wallace & Dom Chiti.  The only Calvary pitcher that made any real progress under Adair was Tillman, so I’ll give him credit for that.  Maybe you could add Miguel Gonzalez to that credit list as well.  Otherwise, Adair did much more harm than good to our young pitchers.

In all honesty, I think Wallace & Chiti were very good for our entire pitching staff, and had both young & veteran pitchers pitching their best ball from 2014-2016, including Bud Norris having his best year in 2014 and Gausman making real progress in 2016, only to regress in 2017 and into this year.  Hell, they even got Miley & Ubaldo pitching well down the stretch in 2016, which was a huge reason we got to the wild card game.  And we saw what happened to both of them last year.

Roger McDowell & Alan Mills have mostly done nothing to help our pitchers improve as a whole, and I would say the majority of our entire pitching staff has taken a step back since they both came aboard in 2017.

But the common element throughout it all has been Buck, and I think he is much more responsible for how poor our pitching has been (starting pitching specifically) than most care to admit.  Both times he had a good thing going, starting with Kranitz in 2010 when he took over as manager late in the season and Wallace/Chiti in ‘14-‘16, he found a way to screw it up, although to be fair, I think Dave & Dom leaving was more about Brady interfering than anything else.  Still, it should have never come to that, and Buck should have had Dave & Dom’s backs, rather than catering to what Brady wanted.  They were his coaches, and he should have had the balls to tell Brady to back off and let them do their job.

I appreciate all that Buck did to bring winning baseball back to Charm City, but I’m just so ready for the Buck era to end.  He has worn out his welcome, and it’s simply time for a new voice and fresh ideas in the manager’s chair.  I would rather keep DD instead of Buck if I had to pick one of them to stay, but I would rather get rid of both and start fresh with a new GM/manager combo under the new ownership direction of John & Lou Angelos, who seem to “get it,” unlike their father.

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44 minutes ago, survivedc said:

On the contrary, the top guys pitching for the Astros right now were not developed by them and Corey Kluber is the only TOR type (IMO) developed by the Indians as Bauer spent his development years in Arizona.

I didn't say they developed them, I said they have them. Their current teams obviously helped them. Cole and Morton have gone to the ace level and Verlander is having his best year in a decade.

Let's just focus on the fact that Buck and company are effing horrendous with starting pitchers.

We are historically bad and there's still discussion about Buck's fate. Seriously?

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I’m really hoping we spend our first pick next year on something other than a pitcher. My brain says, “best player available regardless of position” but my heart says “best position player available”. I would hate to waste our best pick in a long time on a pitcher for him to turn out to be a bust. I know it can happen with any player but for whatever reason we seem to be snakebit when it comes to developing starting pitching.

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I thought about the Orioles selecting a pitcher every round in the draft.  For like 3 years in a row.  I know that it's impossible but man, I wish it could happen.  Just draft a pitcher in every round.  Some are bound to work out, they have to.  Even the Orioles couldn't screw that up.

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10 hours ago, FanSince88 said:

Time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time 

we are told by this front office that the next "ace" is just around the corner.  

And yeah I get it, TINSTAAP and all that.  

But please.  Something is broken with how this organization develops pitchers.  This hasn't just happened a few times.  It. Happens. Every. Frickin. Time.  We are told the next ace is here, they are paraded through the yard, and then they get rocked, again and again and again.  Sure there are some rays of hope here and there.  But really, Gausman had the highest WHIP in the majors most of last year and Bundy is a now basically a batting practice pitcher against all but he most inept offenses.  There have been no aces since Mussina in the early 90s.  There haven't really been any #2 starters either.  Mid-rotation at best, and even most of that have been castoffs from other organizations.  Meanwhile, even bad teams like Tampa Bay, Cleveland, and the White Sox occasionally developed great starting pitching.  

Either bring in an army of pitching gurus in ALL LEVELS of the organization and let them call the shots across the board, or just stop wasting time, energy, and draft picks on "high level' pitching prospects that never seem to work out.  

We've had bad pitching long before DD or Buck were in Baltimore. 

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