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Greg Pappas

Have your views changed regarding any of the deadline trades?

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While it's only been about two months since the five deadline trades, I'd be interested if anyone here has changed their views regarding our return on any of these trades? 

To recap:

For Manny Machado we received from the Dodgers--

  • 21-year old OF Yusniel Diaz, R/R, 6'1 195, Signed w/Dodgers 2015, IFA Cuba
  • 22-year old RHSP Dean Kremer, R/R, 6'3 180, Draft: 2016, Dodgers, 14th rd., College: UNLV
  • 22-year old 3B/2B Rylan Bannon, R/R, 5'10 180, Draft: 2017, Dodgers, 8th rd., College: Xavier
  • 21-year old RHRP Zach Pop, R/R, 6'4 220, Draft: 2017, Dodgers, 7th rd., College: Kentucky
  • 26-year old UTIL Breyvic Valera, S/R, 5'11 160, Signed w/Cardinals 2010, IFA Venezuela


For Zach Britton we received from the Yankees--

  • 24-year old RHSP Dillon Tate, R/R, 6'2 195, Draft: 2015, Rangers, 1st rd., College: UCSB
  • 25-year old RHRP Cody Carroll, R/R, 6'5 215, Draft: 2015, Yankees, 22nd rd., College: Southern Mississippi
  • 24-year old LHSP Josh Rogers, L/L, 6'3 220, Draft: 2015, Yankees, 11th rd., College: Louisville


For Brad Brach we received from the Braves--

  • $250,000 in International signing bonus allocation money


For Kevin Gausman & Darren O'Day we received from the Braves--

  • $2.5 million in International signing bonus allocation money
  • 20-year old 3B Jean Carlos Encarnacion, R/R, 6'3 195
  • 23-year old Catcher Brett Cumberland, S/R, 5'11 205, Draft: 2016, Braves, 2nd rd. (76th overall) College: California
  • 23-year old LHSP Bruce Zimmerman, L/L, 6'3 215, Draft: 2017, Braves, 5th rd. College: Mt. Olive & Towson U. (Born in Baltimore, MD) Here's an interesting read on him
  • 23-year old RHRP Evan Phillips, R/R 6'2 215, Draft: 2015 Braves 17th rd., College: UNC Wilmington (Born in Salisbury, MD)


For Jonathan Schoop we received- from the Brewers-

  • 22-year old RHSP Luis Ortiz, R/R, 6'3 230, Draft: 2014 Rangers 1st rd. (30th overall) Sanger HS (CA)
  • 18-year old SS Jean Carmona, S/R, 6'1 183, Signed w/Brewers 2016, IFA Dominican Republic
  • 27-year old Infielder Jonathan Villar, R/R, 6'1 215, Signed w/Phillies 2008, IFA Dominican Republic
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2 minutes ago, Greg Pappas said:

While it's only been about two months since the five deadline trades, I'd be interested if anyone here has changed their views regarding our return on any of these trades? 

To recap:

For Manny Machado we received from the Dodgers--

  • 21-year old OF Yusniel Diaz, R/R, 6'1 195, Signed w/Dodgers 2015, IFA Cuba
  • 22-year old RHSP Dean Kremer, R/R, 6'3 180, Draft: 2016, Dodgers, 14th rd., College: UNLV
  • 22-year old 3B/2B Rylan Bannon, R/R, 5'10 180, Draft: 2017, Dodgers, 8th rd., College: Xavier
  • 21-year old RHRP Zach Pop, R/R, 6'4 220, Draft: 2017, Dodgers, 7th rd., College: Kentucky
  • 26-year old UTIL Breyvic Valera, S/R, 5'11 160, Signed w/Cardinals 2010, IFA Venezuela


For Zach Britton we received from the Yankees--

  • 24-year old RHSP Dillon Tate, R/R, 6'2 195, Draft: 2015, Rangers, 1st rd., College: UCSB
  • 25-year old RHRP Cody Carroll, R/R, 6'5 215, Draft: 2015, Yankees, 22nd rd., College: Southern Mississippi
  • 24-year old LHSP Josh Rogers, L/L, 6'3 220, Draft: 2015, Yankees, 11th rd., College: Louisville


For Brad Brach we received from the Braves--

  • $250,000 in International signing bonus allocation money


For Kevin Gausman & Darren O'Day we received from the Braves--

  • $2.5 million in International signing bonus allocation money
  • 20-year old 3B Jean Carlos Encarnacion, R/R, 6'3 195
  • 23-year old Catcher Brett Cumberland, S/R, 5'11 205, Draft: 2016, Braves, 2nd rd. (76th overall) College: California
  • 23-year old LHSP Bruce Zimmerman, L/L, 6'3 215, Draft: 2017, Braves, 5th rd. College: Mt. Olive & Towson U. (Born in Baltimore, MD) Here's an interesting read on him
  • 23-year old RHRP Evan Phillips, R/R 6'2 215, Draft: 2015 Braves 17th rd., College: UNC Wilmington (Born in Salisbury, MD)


For Jonathan Schoop we received- from the Brewers-

  • 22-year old RHSP Luis Ortiz, R/R, 6'3 230, Draft: 2014 Rangers 1st rd. (30th overall) Sanger HS (CA)
  • 18-year old SS Jean Carmona, S/R, 6'1 183, Signed w/Brewers 2016, IFA Dominican Republic
  • 27-year old Infielder Jonathan Villar, R/R, 6'1 215, Signed w/Phillies 2008, IFA Dominican Republic

I haven't changed my mind at all. I still like what the O's got in return.

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2 minutes ago, Tx Oriole said:

I haven't changed my mind at all. I still like what the O's got in return.

That's cool. I wasn't happy with any of the trades (my best grade was the Manny trade... a 'C' if IIRC) , but the Schoop trade looks better now than it did at the time. Villar is a solid player and may garner some trade value over the next year or two. Ortiz has solid potential to be a mid-rotation starter and Carmona is a talented youngster that could pay dividends years from now.  It's still quite early, as these deals are not even two months in.  It's my hope that my grades are eventually proven wrong.  I'd rather be wrong and happy than right and disappointed. 😉

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1 minute ago, Greg Pappas said:

That's cool. I wasn't happy with any of the trades (my best grade was the Manny trade... a 'C' if IIRC) , but the Schoop trade looks better now than it did at the time. Villar is a solid player and may garner some trade value over the next year or two. Ortiz has solid potential to be a mid-rotation starter and Carmona is a talented youngster that could pay dividends years from now.  It's still quite early, as these deals are not even two months in.  It's my hope that my grades are eventually proven wrong.  I'd rather be wrong and happy than right and disappointed. 😉

I really like Villar. 

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30 minutes ago, Tx Oriole said:

I haven't changed my mind at all. I still like what the O's got in return.

I think everyone is right where they were before. Right where. 

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20 minutes ago, Greg Pappas said:

That's cool. I wasn't happy with any of the trades (my best grade was the Manny trade... a 'C' if IIRC) , but the Schoop trade looks better now than it did at the time. Villar is a solid player and may garner some trade value over the next year or two. Ortiz has solid potential to be a mid-rotation starter and Carmona is a talented youngster that could pay dividends years from now.  It's still quite early, as these deals are not even two months in.  It's my hope that my grades are eventually proven wrong.  I'd rather be wrong and happy than right and disappointed. 😉

I felt you graded all the trades too harshly myself. But it's opinions. 

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19 minutes ago, mdbdotcom said:

It's all about the prospects. Ask again in three years.

We would hope some of them hit. And that the money saved gets the Orioles through this. 

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I liked all the deals except the Gausman trade where I think the return was and will prove to be too little.   It is not as if we had any realistic options at this point with the trades and the returns were what they were.  I like them much better than keeping our hand intact. 

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I was really only disappointed by the Gausman trade.  I realize a big part of the return was offloading O'Day's contract and picking up international money.  If the O's sign Victor Mesa, this trade looks a lot better.  When I saw how out of shape that Ortiz was, it made me upset about him being the "prize" prospect in that deal.  Maybe he will knuckle down this offseason and take his fitness level and health seriously.  Overall, trading Villar for Schoop was a good deal, even without the prospects. 

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I liked the deals at the deadline and I like them now. It’s all about acquiring lotto tickets for 2021+. Hopefully we can add VVM to how we feel about the deadline. Next July we should have some of the following as attractive trade pieces, 

Cashner, Cobb, Bundy, Givens, Bleier, Trumbo, Beckham, and Villar. 

Not saying we trade them all or should, but it’s all about adding to the 2021 inventory. 

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I still like it for the prospects and for some other factors.  A few things to consider:

We got a breadth of players in their early twenties, and I believe that sort of depth allows them to spend more of their resources in the next two to three years on teenagers, whether international or high school.  We'll still draft and sign a few stud college guys next year, but we will also put more of the allocation towards teenage talent because we have some depth in our AA-AAA levels at the moment and we can afford to shy away from college picks in the later rounds a little.  

A V-Squared signing, if it happens, will make the Gausman trade sting less for me. If they don't get him, what do they get? Will the spend it on other talent, or will something magically pop up out of an Asian market again?  There is still undetermined value with this trade.  

Brach's value went to the 47 year old rookie ball DH.  Still so confused on that one. I've liked a lot of Dan's moves since he was given some autonomy, but I hope I'm missing something here.

 I understand everyone's opinion on the prospects we got back for Gausman's value, but I still wonder if saving that O'day money pays for our analytics department next season.  Does it allow the O's to triple their scouting staff?  Hire some wellness and nutrition specialists?  Maybe a sports phsychologist, or a hypnotist for Davis?  We shed all the money in the contracts of all our players we sent out.  I don't really understand the full spectrum of the finances behind player development, scouting, etc.  But I would think the millions saved could build some solid facilities in international territory.

Also, the markets are changing.  The day of the blockbuster 5 top 10 prospects for 1 Super Star may be over, at least for a while.  The economy's numbers suggest growth, but baseball owners seem to be holding onto their controllable assets a little tighter these days.  I was surprised we got as much as we did for Manny.  I liked the Schoop deal from the start; I liked watching him and appreciate him, but I didn't think his career would be sustainable based on his body type/build and his free swinging habits.  I like Ortiz despite his awful conclusion of the season, but I seriously give him a pass.  He may be a bullpen guy, but I'm ok with that.  What we really want out of these moves are future MLB players.  Diaz, Kremer, Pop, Tate (as a BP guy), Carroll, and Ortiz all seem like guys who could come up and stick.  

I like the pick ups of Carmona and Encarnacion.  The bottom of our system really needed an injection of youthful talent.  More to come with some of this intl money being spent recently.

These moves also showed a commitment to change, and I believe the change in mentality is a certain type of value obtained from these trades.  It also shows the other MLB teams that we are open for business on our vets moving forward.  Conversations have already started I'm sure.  It just takes months, sometimes multiple seasons for something to materialize.  It also says, we are going to try to win a World Series by doing it a different way.  I always thought about the quote, Einstein maybe? "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."  

 

 

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