Jump to content
JohnD

MASN dispute update

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, hoosiers said:

It all feels to unfair - MLB bullies its way to a win with the Nats over the Os, are show to be fundamentally unfair, though the entire unfair process provided a roadmap to victory for subsequent re-dos. 

Still, the Os have themselves to blame - not specifically calling out the Bortz formula in the contract, not calling out a minimum profit margin for MASN in the contract, not presenting a reasonable argument for the value of the rights fees in the original hearing - presenting instead a bs low number that the Nats deserved (just like the Nats asked for a bs number.  If the Os had offered something credible, but low in that hearing, they might have won.  And that the original MASN contract called for equal rights fees for the Os and Nats is a big part of the issues faced today.  Remember, in all of this "fairness" for the Os that PA/MASN sought, MASN owners were guaranteed in the ballpark of $150M-$200M in profits in the early years of MASN - and still the Os/MASN pressed hard for equal footing - despite the massive difference in market capacity between the two franchises.  It all seems so strange the mistakes in the MASN contract given PA's acumen as an attorney.

This is a personal opinion so take it as such. PA was very good in going after people. Not as good at protecting his interests. Interesting to see how the transfer of Ownership was done, if any, and how that relates to further proceedings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, weams said:

On another note, the Orioles have retained the right to appeal this ruling. 

Yeah until this hits the Supreme court I don't see the Nationals getting anything. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, atomic said:

Yeah until this hits the Supreme court I don't see the Nationals getting anything. 

Zero chance that the US Supreme Court will hear this case.   Slight chance that MASN/the Orioles would ask the Supreme Court to hear the case once the NY appeals are over, just because they're ridiculously pugnacious.    But the Supreme Court would never take the case.

For those who would like to read Justice Cohen's 27-page opinion, here it is: https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=3qoObmdzSa_PLUS_vVExf1Q1mjg==

The most notable part of the opinion is the introduction:
 

Quote

 

In many cases, arbitration is a quick and efficient way to resolve disputes with little or no court involvement. Stolt-Nielsen S.A. v. Animal Feeds International Corp., 559 U.S. 662 (2010). This is not one of those cases.

This is a dispute between the Washington Nationals Baseball Club ("the Nationals") and the Baltimore Orioles Baseball Club ("the Orioles") and related entities regarding the division of television revenues and profits through their jointly owned television network MASN. As required by their contract, the teams submitted the dispute for resolution by Major League Baseball’s Revenue Sharing Definitions Committee ("RSDC") in January 2012.1

The RSDC issued its decision two years later. It was promptly challenged in court by the Orioles. After three years of litigation, the arbitration award was vacated on the ground that the law firm that represented the Nationals in the arbitration concurrently represented Major League Baseball (MLB) and the three arbitrators’ teams in other matters, resulting in "evident partiality." The Orioles’ request to have the second arbitration shifted to a non-MLB tribunal was denied. Then came another year of arbitration with a different RSDC panel, which rendered an award that was nearly identical in dollar terms to the first one five years earlier.

And now, more than seven years after the arbitration process began, the parties are back in litigation. The Nationals (again) ask the Court to confirm the RDSC arbitration award. In response, the Orioles (again) ask the Court to vacate the award on the ground of MLB and RSDC bias and remand for a third arbitration before a non-MLB arbitration panel.  With a nod to Yogi Berra, it’s like déjà vu all over again.

For the reasons that follow, the Court grants the Nationals’ motion, confirms the RSDC’s award, and terminates this proceeding.

 

The court rejected various arguments that the proceeding was biased, finding them to be a rehash of arguments that Justice Marks had rejected in the original court decision.   The court also found that "[t]he 48-page [new RSDC] decision is extraordinarily detailed and thorough."

As to the issue that has been referred to the Special Referee Clerk, I was right that this just relates to interest due on the award.   The interest only begins to run from the date the arbitration award was made (April 15, 2019), so it isn't a huge sum, although New York statutory interest runs at the high rate of 9%.   The interest accrued right now is probably in the ballpark of $3 mm.   Interest will continue to accrue during the time elapsed as MASN/the Orioles appeal the ruling.   

  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Zero chance that the US Supreme Court will hear this case.   Slight chance that MASN/the Orioles would ask the Supreme Court to hear the case once the NY appeals are over, just because they're ridiculously pugnacious.    But the Supreme Court would never take the case.

 For those who would like to read Justice Cohen's 27-page opinion, here it is: https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=3qoObmdzSa_PLUS_vVExf1Q1mjg==

The most notable part of the opinion is the introduction:
 

The court rejected various arguments that the proceeding was biased, finding them to be a rehash of arguments that Justice Marks had rejected in the original court decision.   The court also found that "[t]he 48-page [new RSDC] decision is extraordinarily detailed and thorough."

As to the issue that has been referred to the Special Referee Clerk, I was right that this just relates to interest due on the award.   The interest only begins to run from the date the arbitration award was made (April 15, 2019), so it isn't a huge sum, although New York statutory interest runs at the high rate of 9%.   The interest accrued right now is probably in the ballpark of $3 mm.   Interest will continue to accrue during the time elapsed as MASN/the Orioles appeal the ruling.   

Yeah that is why I didn't say the Supreme Court hears the case.  I think they will appeal to it.  Can't they appeal on other reasons as well? Like go back to the lower court with another reason to appeal? 

I own a lot of Chevron stock and they were involved in a big lawsuit after buying Texaco.  The suit took 25 years to finalize with award being thrown out at the end.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a bare knuckle brawl that I don't see us winning or settled fairly for us.

Did/does anyone really see this going in our favor?  Come on.  Once the talk of the Expos being permitted to move started  and the negotiations began to put them in DC, the Expos/Nats owners would have agreed to ANYTHING to get it done.  Shaking hands, signing contracts, relinquishing their first born sons...  All the while with one hand behind their back with their fingers crossed KNOWING they were going to get into this blood-sport to wrestle market share and tv rights from the Orioles.  It was part of the long-range game plan.  Had to have been.

What's going to be interesting is to hear what Frobby has to say about the market share aspect.  With where we are as a rebuilding franchise, slumping attendance, and having an owner who is ailing, we are ripe to be taken advantage of, imo.

The Nats argument:  We are the regional leader in attendance and fan loyalty, we deserve a greater percentage of the market and majority control of any TV deals in the region.

The Orioles argument:  Nuh uh.  (Judge asks why...)  umm, because.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, atomic said:

Yeah that is why I didn't say the Supreme Court hears the case.  I think they will appeal to it.  Can't they appeal on other reasons as well? Like go back to the lower court with another reason to appeal? 

I own a lot of Chevron stock and they were involved in a big lawsuit after buying Texaco.  The suit took 25 years to finalize with award being thrown out at the end.  

I’m aware of the Chevron case; in fact, I was involved in it indirectly for a period of time.   

No, they can’t do anything further in the lower court.    Their best shot is going to be in the New York Court of Appeal.   Remember, the intermediate appellate court was split 3-2 on the question of whether the second arbitration should have gone to a non-RSDC panel.    The NY Court of Appeal declined to hear that issue for procedural reasons, but will be able to take up that issue when the matter comes before them this time.   Since it was a close call on that issue in the Appellate Division, it’s conceivable that the Court of Appeal could go the other way.    But I doubt it, and I really doubt any of the other grounds are going to work.    

One thing the O’s and MASN have to think about now is the 9% interest that’s accruing.    Let’s say they drag this out for another two years — that would mean owing an extra $20 mm or so in interest, at a time when market interest rates are running way lower than 9%.    Up to the second arbitration award, no interest was accruing, so all the delay was working in their favor.    Now it’s not, and they’ll need to think hard about whether the cost of the appeal (in terms of accruing interest) is worth the somewhat unlikely chance of overturning the award.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m aware of the Chevron case; in fact, I was involved in it indirectly for a period of time.   

No, they can’t do anything further in the lower court.    Their best shot is going to be in the New York Court of Appeal.   Remember, the intermediate appellate court was split 3-2 on the question of whether the second arbitration should have gone to a non-RSDC panel.    The NY Court of Appeal declined to hear that issue for procedural reasons, but will be able to take up that issue when the matter comes before them this time.   Since it was a close call on that issue in the Appellate Division, it’s conceivable that the Court of Appeal could go the other way.    But I doubt it, and I really doubt any of the other grounds are going to work.    

One thing the O’s and MASN have to think about now is the 9% interest that’s accruing.    Let’s say they drag this out for another two years — that would mean owing an extra $20 mm or so in interest, at a time when market interest rates are running way lower than 9%.    Up to the second arbitration award, no interest was accruing, so all the delay was working in their favor.    Now it’s not, and they’ll need to think hard about whether the cost of the appeal (in terms of accruing interest) is worth the somewhat unlikely chance of overturning the award.

Maybe they could settle the suit with the Nationals now.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, atomic said:

Maybe they could settle the suit with the Nationals now.  

That would probably be the best solution for a number of reasons. We'll see what they do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/23/2019 at 9:54 AM, atomic said:

Maybe they could settle the suit with the Nationals now.  

Why would the Nationals be inclined to do so?  I don’t know how bitter the Lerners are, but if they want to stick it to Angelos they’ve got the means to do so by simply pushing for higher broadcast fees to both teams in order to crush MASN.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Beetlejuice said:

Why would the Nationals be inclined to do so?  I don’t know how bitter the Lerners are, but if they want to stick it to Angelos they’ve got the means to do so by simply pushing for higher broadcast fees to both teams in order to crush MASN.

I think if this award survives all appeals, future debates will be limited to nibbling at the edges.    The award sets the methodology for determining rights fees and any future adjustments in that methodology will be minor.    

To me the big misconception is that “the Nats won.”    No they didn’t.   They had an arbitration, the panel made a compromise award, and the Nats decided to accept it while the Orioles didn’t.    I doubt the Nats liked the initial decision any more than the Orioles did.   But they made the strategic decision to live with it and align itself with MLB.    

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I think if this award survives all appeals, future debates will be limited to nibbling at the edges.    The award sets the methodology for determining rights fees and any future adjustments in that methodology will be minor.    

To me the big misconception is that “the Nats won.”    No they didn’t.   They had an arbitration, the panel made a compromise award, and the Nats decided to accept it while the Orioles didn’t.    I doubt the Nats liked the initial decision any more than the Orioles did.   But they made the strategic decision to live with it and align itself with MLB.    

Realistically how fast can the appeals get shut down and this judgement finalized?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Realistically how fast can the appeals get shut down and this judgement finalized?

The appeals will take time, assuming the Orioles pursue them.   Realistically, a minimum of 18 months, a maximum of 3 years (but probably not that long).

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Orioles Information


Orioles News and Information

Daily Organizational Boxscores
News

Tony's Takes

Orioles Roster Resource

Orioles Prospect Information

2018 End of Season Top 30 Prospects List

Prospect Scouting Reports

Statistics

2019 Orioles Stats

2019 Orioles Minor League Stats

Baseball Savant Stats






  • Posts

    • Like the previous years, this will be the thread where we will keep the draft picks and follow them through signing. Post any signings in this thread, or in the forum, and I'll keep this post updated. Thanks. Player will become bold when he signs.   1.   -  (2)    Player - Position - Status (Prep or College Team) -  Stats 1A.  - (30) 2   -  (39) 3.   -  (74) 4.   -  (103) 5.   -  (133)   2) Orioles: $7,789,900 30) Orioles: $2,365,500 39) Orioles: $1,906,800 74) Orioles: $844,200 103) Orioles: $565,600 133) Orioles: $422,300 ~13.8 Million 2019-20 International Signings 2018 Draft Tracker 2017 Draft Tracker 2016 Draft Tracker 2015 Draft Tracker 2014 Draft Tracker 2013 Draft Tracker 2012 Draft Tracker 2011 Draft Tracker 2010 Draft Tracker 2009 Draft Tracker Player                                 Slot                      Spent                 Savings                 Pick# 1.                                            1 1A.   2. 3.    4.    5.    6.      Savings               $     Overslot  Remaining                                        Slot Values        $13,821,300 - Orioles Slot Values 105%       $14,512,365 Approximate potential overslot 
    • The other side of that is when you have a smaller sample buried in a line that includes the first half some players will have truly ugly performances:                                                                                                                                                        Rk    I              Player    Split Year  G   BA GS  PA  AB  R  H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO  OBP  SLG  OPS  TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+ 1                Bill Doran 2nd Half 1989 55 .131 48 208 176 26 23  9  0  0   9  8  0 26 24 .244 .182 .426  32   0   1  3  2   1   3  .149    37    25 2                 Dan Uggla 2nd Half 2013 48 .133 43 178 143 14 19  2  0  4  13  2  0 27 55 .298 .231 .529  33   4   7  0  1   2   1  .176    60    53 3                Adam Engel 2nd Half 2017 70 .136 68 242 220 19 30  8  3  4  16  4  0 11 92 .198 .255 .453  56   0   6  5  0   0   4  .210    75    21 4               Steve Jeltz 2nd Half 1988 69 .137 60 205 182 16 25  3  0  0  11  0  0 18 28 .214 .154 .368  28   4   0  4  1   1   2  .161    38     9 5              Derek Norris 2nd Half 2016 49 .144 44 177 160 12 23  4  0  2   9  5  2 16 64 .226 .206 .432  33   3   1  0  0   2   1  .223    51    20 6                Vic Harris 2nd Half 1972 58 .144 53 192 180  8 26  5  1  0  10  7  3 12 37 .198 .183 .381  33   0   0  0  0   1   3  .182   107    16 7            J.P. Arencibia 2nd Half 2013 54 .145 44 173 166 11 24  5  0  5  13  0  0  5 50 .173 .265 .438  44   4   1  0  1   0   3  .170    49    22 8              Jerry Kenney 2nd Half 1970 65 .149 47 192 168 15 25  3  1  1  10  9  1 23 17 .251 .196 .448  33   4   0  1  0   1   5  .160    58    29 9            Gordon Beckham 2nd Half 2016 54 .152 30 155 138 10 21  9  0  2  14  0  0 12 36 .219 .261 .480  36   7   1  0  4   1   1  .183    50    31 10            Jon Singleton 2nd Half 2014 57 .155 50 207 174 26 27  7  0  7  23  1  1 33 77 .290 .316 .606  55   0   0  0  0   0   3  .222    96    76
    • The 2nd half of a season is never quite half, it's usually 70 games or so.  So I checked on 2nd half splits, and in the last 50 years six guys have hit .400 over that period.  And 26 have hit at least .380.  Even recently, in the period of declining batting averages:                                                                                                                                                         Rk    I            Player    Split Year  G   BA GS  PA  AB  R   H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS  BB SO  OBP  SLG   OPS  TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+ 1           Ichiro Suzuki 2nd Half 2004 76 .429 75 360 333 56 143  8  3  5  29 15  5  22 32 .465 .517  .982 172   1   2  1  2  12   4  .463   126   159 2            George Brett 2nd Half 1980 72 .421 71 326 280 57 118 21  4 16  77  9  6  38 10 .482 .696 1.178 195   6   1  0  7  10   3  .391   111   227 3              Joey Votto 2nd Half 2016 72 .408 71 314 262 53 107 19  2 15  55  2  0  47 32 .490 .668 1.158 175   8   0  0  5   8   0  .418   134   214 4             Barry Bonds 2nd Half 2002 61 .404 59 265 171 49  69 15  0 19  53  6  1  89 19 .608 .825 1.432 141   2   3  0  2  30   2  .370   108   280 5            Larry Walker 2nd Half 1998 61 .402 54 244 209 61  84 16  2 14  34  6  0  31 36 .480 .699 1.178 146   5   2  0  2   1   1  .435   119   209 6              Tony Gwynn 2nd Half 1993 47 .400 47 208 190 35  76 19  0  4  30  4  0  15  4 .438 .563 1.001 107   9   0  0  3   5   5  .389   123   171 7              Wade Boggs 2nd Half 1985 75 .395 74 353 311 59 123 20  2  5  40  1  0  40 30 .467 .521  .988 162  11   2  0  0   2   7  .428   113   172 8          Jim Eisenreich 2nd Half 1996 41 .391 35 151 138 18  54 13  1  1  19  3  0  12 10 .437 .522  .959  72   4   0  0  1   2   1  .414   116   152 9            George Brett 2nd Half 1990 71 .388 70 305 278 46 108 33  5 12  58  4  1  24 28 .433 .673 1.105 187   9   0  0  3   5   0  .398   143   212 10          Justin Turner 2nd Half 2014 50 .388 30 146 129 25  50 11  0  4  22  4  1  14 27 .459 .566 1.025  73   3   3  0  0   1   1  .469   128   197 11          Manny Ramirez 2nd Half 2008 63 .388 63 274 224 44  87 18  0 19  61  2  0  43 42 .485 .723 1.209 162   7   3  0  4  19   3  .407   133   214 12            Barry Bonds 2nd Half 2003 50 .388 48 201 134 43  52 11  0 15  27  0  0  64 19 .587 .806 1.393 108   3   2  0  1  24   1  .366   119   270 13             Hank Aaron 2nd Half 1973 43 .387 37 166 137 31  53  7  1 13  44  1  1  25 12 .470 .737 1.207 101   2   0  0  4   6   1  .345   132   237 14              J.T. Snow 2nd Half 2004 59 .387 47 224 181 42  70 18  1  9  44  2  0  37 25 .496 .646 1.142 117   0   4  0  2   0   1  .409   138   198 15           Albert Belle 2nd Half 1998 76 .387 76 328 282 61 109 26  1 31  86  4  0  38 34 .451 .816 1.267 230   6   1  0  7   9   2  .348   138   228 16           Johnny Damon 2nd Half 2000 76 .386 76 354 329 71 127 29  6  8  52 23  3  17 24 .413 .584  .997 192   5   1  3  4   0   9  .395   126   159 17              Wes Helms 2nd Half 2006 70 .385 28 154 130 21  50 14  3  5  29  0  2  13 23 .444 .654 1.098  85   5   4  3  4   0   0  .425   128   183 18           Buster Posey 2nd Half 2012 71 .385 69 298 257 43  99 23  1 14  60  0  1  37 46 .456 .646 1.102 166   7   0  0  4   7   2  .423   129   203 19         Miguel Cabrera 2nd Half 2011 69 .385 68 300 257 48  99 27  0 12  46  1  0  42 38 .470 .630 1.100 162   9   0  0  1   8   2  .418   112   200 20         Roberto Alomar 2nd Half 1997 37 .384 35 153 138 20  53 12  0  6  24  2  2  10 12 .424 .601 1.025  83   4   1  2  2   1   0  .385   129   170 21          Josh Hamilton 2nd Half 2010 48 .384 47 203 177 36  68 15  1 10  36  1  0  19 25 .448 .650 1.098 115   9   4  0  3   1   1  .400   112   202 22            Mike Napoli 2nd Half 2011 61 .383 58 249 214 44  82 15  0 18  42  3  1  33 47 .466 .706 1.171 151   4   1  0  1   2   3  .427   124   217 23            John Olerud 2nd Half 1998 77 .381 72 326 281 51 107 20  1 15  47  1  1  41 33 .457 .619 1.076 174   9   1  0  3   3   4  .390   115   184 24              Rod Carew 2nd Half 1977 67 .381 63 299 273 58 104 18  2  8  42 13  3  24 22 .430 .549  .979 150   2   0  1  1   4   2  .393    92   169 25             Wade Boggs 2nd Half 1988 73 .380 73 339 271 69 103 22  4  3  27  0  2  63 13 .493 .524 1.017 142  10   1  0  4   7   6  .386   111   198 26        Victor Martinez 2nd Half 2005 71 .380 69 301 263 42 100 19  0 11  45  0  1  35 42 .449 .578 1.026 152   7   0  0  3   5   1  .418   141   175 Ichiro was doing his best peak-Willie Keeler impersonation the second half of '04. And how do you like Albert Belle's steroid-era walk year finish in '98?  .387/.451/.816 with 31 homers, good for a Bondsian 1.267 OPS.  Sure impressed Mr. Angelos.
    • https://www.lookoutlanding.com/2019/12/16/21023953/mariners-2020-draft-preview-rhp-tanner-burns
    • I think the most we'll hear about it down the road is in regard to HOF cases. If a player like Miguel Cabrera ends up 100 hits shy of 3,000 - people will bring it up in those discussions. The only real "record" that someone could achieve this season, like many have mentioned here, is hitting .400. I doubt people will give it much weight - and it'll probably become more of a trivia question or fun fact than a true honor. If some crappy team like the Orioles somehow gets hot for 50 games and wins a World Series - there certainly will be the wink and nod that it was obviously a fluke - but it'll be too much fun for everyone for it not to mean something.
    • I used to listen to all the Baltimore Bullet games in 1968-69, how many times did I hear "Rebound Unseld, off to Monroe (or Loughery).  His full court chest passes were unbelievable.  That was such an exciting team and the seven game playoff wars they had with the Knicks (Willis Reed, Dave. DeBusschere and Bill Bradley) were unbelievable to watch.   Wes Unseld visited my school Johnnycake Junior High school during the '68-'69 season and talked about what he thought was important in life.  I recall he said how much he admired his father above everyone else.  He was a class act, RIP Wes,.  It was a joy to watch you play. 
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...