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The Suck is in full swing now

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1 hour ago, Tx Oriole said:

 

Yes but the 'Stros have a World Series win. The Rays dont. 

 

 

 

54 minutes ago, atomic said:

 

How do you know? The Astros didn't win the World series until 3 years after this 5-year period. That would mean the Rays would need to win the 2021 World Series to keep pace.

 

o

 

Granted that what I am about to say is somewhat off-topic in terms of the specific time period that we are talking about (the recent rebuilds of the Astros and the Rays, respectively), but if people are going to be throwing a team/franchise's weight around based on World Series appearances and/or World Series wins ........ the Astros have been in existence since 1962, while the Rays have been in existence since 1998. The Astros did not make it to their first World Series until 2005, more than 4 decades after the berth of their franchise. The Rays made it to the World Series in 2008, only 10 years after the berth of their franchise. The Astros didn't win the World Series until 2017, 55 years after their inaugural season in 1962. To equal that feat, the Rays would have to win the World Series by the year 2053 (2052 if you take into consideration the fact that there was no postseason in 1994.)

 

More significantly than all of that (and in a similar context of looking at the overall picture of a team/franchise's successes and failures), I agree completely with theocean's post in regard to all of this .........

 

o

1 hour ago, theocean said:

 

I've heard this said a bunch - but I don't think that a World Series title and/or 100+ wins is the gold standard for a successful team. It's a bit dismissive of the successes of other teams (the Rays were pretty dang good for a while, and made it to a World Series.) The 2017 Astros aren't the only team to ever be good, and I don't think that a rebuild is automatically a failure if a team fails to win it all.

 The Giants won three World Championships without winning more than 94 games. They won the 2014 World Series with an 88-74 record. The Royals have had three winning seasons since 2004, but they made it to two World Series, and won one. I think any of us would take that.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Dipper9 said:

I have a feeling the second half of the season we'll see Hayes, Mountcastle, Diaz, and others come up and give some life to this team.  We still have zero pitching though and I don't see a lot in the system to even have hopes of helping anytime soon.

 

Honestly, my evaluation of Elias this year will probably depend more on what’s going on in the minors than the majors.    I do think we have some decent pitching talent down there, and how it develops is an important factor in how long this rebuild will take.   

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25 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Like I said, let me know when they win the whole thing.   Maybe they will.    I’d certainly be happy if they did.   

As I said before, I don’t think there’s a one size fits all way to rebuild.    Tampa has never allowed its team to get really old, dealing guys like Price, Shields and Garza and replenishing their team even when they were contending.    The O’s didn’t do that, trading away several good prospects and losing draft picks.     So we are just in a much different position than Tampa and not in a position to emulate their rebuild.     

That said, I don’t think Elias gets to go 3-4 years without us evaluating how he’s doing.    We will need some evidence that the talent level in the organization is building and that players in the system are developing well.    

You make good sense.

I agree, I hope to see more improvement as he has more time at the helm.

I dont think a 3 year phase for a rebuild is unrealistic, as the sad state of affairs this program was.

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52 minutes ago, OFFNY said:

o

 

Granted that what I am about to say is somewhat off-topic in terms of the specific time period that we are talking about (the recent rebuilds of the Astros and the Rays, respectively), but if people are going to be throwing a team/franchise's weight around based on World Series appearances and/or World Series wins ........ the Astros have been in existence since 1962, while the Rays have been in existence since 1998. The Astros did not make it to their first World Series until 2005, more than 4 decades after the berth of their franchise. The Rays made it to the World Series in 2008, only 10 years after the berth of their franchise. The Astros didn't win the World Series until 2017, 55 years after their inaugural season in 1962. To equal that feat, the Rays would have to win the World Series by the year 2053 (2052 if you take into consideration the fact that there was no postseason in 1994.)

 

More significantly than all of that (and in a similar context of looking at the overall picture of a team/franchise's successes and failures), I agree completely with theocean's post in regard to all of this .........

 

o

o

 

That said, I also agree with Frobby's assertion in the highlighted portion of this post .........

 

o

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

 

Just let me know when the Rays win a World Series or win 100+ two years in a row.    

Actually, I’m not faulting the Rays rebuild, which was impressive. But every situation is different. Elias inherited a 47-win team with a mediocre farm system and no international pipeline. He wasn’t going to win 70+ this year no matter what he did. This is a multi-year project and there’s just no getting around that.   

 

o

 

Every situation IS different, especially in baseball, where (unlike football, basketball, and hockey) there is no salary cap. As one Oriole fan said a long time ago when comparing the GM jobs of the Orioles and the Yankees ....... You give me $200 Million-Plus year in and year out, and I'll put a winning, competitive team on the field year in and year out. You give me the restrictions that Andy MacPhail (and later Dan Duquette) have, and they'll hang me outside of OPACY.

 

So Billy Beane's Athletics teams have never made it to and/or won a World Series, but considering how slanted the picture is in terms of financial resources, I am more impressed with what he did with that franchise in his tenure as their GM than I am with teams like the Yankees and the Dodgers winning recent Pennants in 2009, 2017, and 2018 with the resources that their GM's have been allotted to work with.

 

o

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I don't think the Rays World Series appearance has much to do with the quality of their rebuild.  Different people were running the team.  Their current GM was an intern back then.  I was focusing on the rebuild period.  

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First, you want consistent quality, and that is something the rays have. We haven’t. We had three playoff years, and two additional years at or above 500. In order to accomplish that, vast sacrifices of “future” were made.

Well, the future is now, and it is as barren as a moonscape.

Be consistent. Avoid long term contracts(but investigate extensions)hoard your draft picks,  be willing to cut bait after a certain time, sell your guys at their peak, and avoid impulse deals.

and don’t sign fly ball pitchers expecting them to do well in Camden Yards. Oy, and yet, look at who’s doing the flinging for us.

sheesh...

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The issue isn't fly ball pitchers, it's not very good pitchers.

Good fly ball pitchers get strike outs and pop ups and don't have the HR/FB ratio that ground ball guys have.

They can do fine at OPACY. 

If anything I think the O's obsession with ground ball guys (Hobgood comes first to mind) has done plenty of damage over the years.

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44 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

The issue isn't fly ball pitchers, it's not very good pitchers.

Good fly ball pitchers get strike outs and pop ups and don't have the HR/FB ratio that ground ball guys have.

They can do fine at OPACY. 

If anything I think the O's obsession with ground ball guys (Hobgood comes first to mind) has done plenty of damage over the years.

I more or less agree with you.  As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, our ERA has generally been worse on the road than at home, so the suitability of our pitchers to OPACY in particular is not the root problem.    (Our home ERA is worse at home than on the road this year, but that’s still a small sample.)   

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On 4/21/2019 at 10:08 AM, hoosiers said:

I guess I had a different perspective entering this season.  I have been enjoying the effort and attitude of our guys.  The cheering on the dugout after the Davis hit - that was the entire roster showing respect for Davis - loved it.  Actually, one of my favorite Os moments ever.  The entire MLB team is pulling in the same direction as is the entire organization.  These guys are playing the right way and are only getting beaten on talent.  And we will see that talent gap close each year - including this one when Mountcastle and Hays and others get to Bmore.

There is a ways to go on the pitching side.  It should make folks realize the big deal it was for the prior management to find a Miguel Gonzalez and claim a league average starting pitcher for nothing out of nowhere.  Just as we picked up Guthrie and Rodrigo Lopez before that.  

Yes, a proper rebuild involves some suckitude, but let's enjoy the process and not miss how a good front office builds a competitive major league team with a quality minor league talent base from the ground up brick by brick.

Nice post. 

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