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Uli2001

WAR is a JOKE

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Uli Kunkel?  Her co-star in the beaver picture?

@Uli2001, not only did @Frobby take you to school, I'll tell you where to sit on the bus:

Trout has lead the league in at least one category each year since his rookie year.  Most years it's two or three things.  Pick one, stolen bases, walks, on base percentage, RBI, runs, slugging, OPS...he's lead the league in all of those things, most of them multiple times.

Roberto Alomar lead the league in something exactly twice:  plate appearances and runs.  That's it.  The black ink on Trout's baseball reference page (in other words, the amount of times he lead the league in something) is Ted Williams-esque.  

That doesn't have anything to do with WAR necessarily, but it's an indicator of exactly how dominant Trout is from a different perspective.  Roberto Alomar was a great player but he's not in the same breath as Trout.  

That all being said, I am sick and tired of WAR.  Every debate is WAR this, WAR that...every MVP vote these past few years is practically just whoever leads their league in WAR and it doesn't go to the WAR leader its a giant f'ing deal and a tragedy (see:  Miguel Cabrera Triple Crown vs. Trout).

It's removed any nuance from discussion about baseball and who is the better player.  Almost every debate is an open and shut case with someone pointing to a players WAR total.  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Frobby said:

 

There’s a lot of points in here so I’ll try to take a few of them.   

1. I don’t think WAR is perfect.   In particular, none of the various advanced defensive metrics is perfect, and relying on one version increases the odds of overvaluing or undervaluing a player.    

2. The fact that you initially cited Trout’s standing on BA, SLG and RBI suggests to me that you undervalue OBP.    The guy has a .463 OBP — that is ridiculous.   He’s on base nearly half the time he’s up - that’s huge.

3.   You also need to remember than Trout puts up his numbers in a pitcher-friendly ballpark.   

4. Almost every other player who puts up offensive numbers in the same universe as Trout is a 1B, a corner OF, or a DH. The fact that Trout does it as an above average CF further sets him apart. There are better defensive CF’s around, but they aren’t in the same universe as a hitter.

5. bI’d be interested to know what players you’d put above Trout this year as overall players.

6. nSome years, there is a guy who has a year comparable to Trout, like Betts last year or Harper a few years back.     But Trout does it year in and year out like clockwork.

 

o

 

"There are people that can sing better than Frank Elgin, there are people that can act better than Frank Elgin, but I don't know of anybody who can do better than he does at both of them simultaneously."

 

The Country Girl, 1954

 

o

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58 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Uli Kunkel?  Her co-star in the beaver picture?

@Uli2001, not only did @Frobby take you to school, I'll tell you where to sit on the bus:

Trout has lead the league in at least one category each year since his rookie year.  Most years it's two or three things.  Pick one, stolen bases, walks, on base percentage, RBI, runs, slugging, OPS...he's lead the league in all of those things, most of them multiple times.

Roberto Alomar lead the league in something exactly twice:  plate appearances and runs.  That's it.  The black ink on Trout's baseball reference page (in other words, the amount of times he lead the league in something) is Ted Williams-esque.  

That doesn't have anything to do with WAR necessarily, but it's an indicator of exactly how dominant Trout is from a different perspective.  Roberto Alomar was a great player but he's not in the same breath as Trout.  

That all being said, I am sick and tired of WAR.  Every debate is WAR this, WAR that...every MVP vote these past few years is practically just whoever leads their league in WAR and it doesn't go to the WAR leader its a giant f'ing deal and a tragedy (see:  Miguel Cabrera Triple Crown vs. Trout).

It's removed any nuance from discussion about baseball and who is the better player.  Almost every debate is an open and shut case with someone pointing to a players WAR total.  

 

 

 

It's because the defensive components of WAR are still grossly flawed. That's all. It will get better. 

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7 hours ago, Uli2001 said:

I don't want to hear any more of it. If Trout at 27 has more WAR than Roberto Alomar in his entire career, then to me it's a joke, end of story.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/26887115/mike-trout-tracker-edition-now-better-three-more-hall-famers

By the way, according to nerd baseball, Alomar was an average defensive player at best (see story).

WAR should be called WART (WAR statistic for Trout). It should be applied only to him.

Have you watched Trout play? Robbie was one of my favorite players growing up, but he's not even close to Trout as a player. 

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1 hour ago, OFFNY said:

o

 

"There are people that can sing better than George Elgin, there are people that can act better than George Elgin, but I don't know of anybody who can do better than he does at both of them simultaneously."

 

The Country Girl, 1954

 

o

Sinatra had pretty good acting chops.

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1 hour ago, OFFNY said:

o

 

"There are people that can sing better than Frank Elgin, there are people that can act better than Frank Elgin, but I don't know of anybody who can do better than he does at both of them simultaneously."

 

The Country Girl, 1954

 

o

 

 

6 minutes ago, SteveA said:

 

Sinatra had pretty good acting chops.

 

o

 

That was Bing Crosby in that movie.

I really like "Suddenly" and "The Man with the Golden Arm", both of which starred Sinatra. I would also like to see "Contract on Cherry Street" someday.

 

o

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To expound, if you want to compare Robbie Alomar to Trout let's look at OPS versus the league leader over their respective careers (since you point out Trout's standings in statistical categories this year)

In Trout's career (2011-2019), he has a .993 OPS which is 1st in MLB over that period. It's 3.3% higher than the next highest OPS and 35.6% better than league average.

In Alomar's career even not counting his decline phase (1988-2001), he had a .833 OPS which was good for 92nd in MLB over that period. 24% below the highest OPS, 12.5% better than league average.

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Career wOBA:

Trout .418

Alomar .359

 

Career wRC+

Trout 172

Alomar 118

 

They aren't even in the same universe offensively. Trout also plays a more demanding defensive position and while Alomar had a period of very high level defense at 2B, Trout is well above average in CF

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18 hours ago, Luke-OH said:

To expound, if you want to compare Robbie Alomar to Trout let's look at OPS versus the league leader over their respective careers (since you point out Trout's standings in statistical categories this year)

In Trout's career (2011-2019), he has a .993 OPS which is 1st in MLB over that period. It's 3.3% higher than the next highest OPS and 35.6% better than league average.

In Alomar's career even not counting his decline phase (1988-2001), he had a .833 OPS which was good for 92nd in MLB over that period. 24% below the highest OPS, 12.5% better than league average.

 

13 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

Career wOBA:

Trout .418

Alomar .359

 

Career wRC+

Trout 172

Alomar 118

 

They aren't even in the same universe offensively. Trout also plays a more demanding defensive position and while Alomar had a period of very high level defense at 2B, Trout is well above average in CF

In fairness to the OP, I don’t think he was arguing that Alomar was better than Trout.   He was arguing that the total value of Alomar’s 17-year career was better than the value of Trout’s 9-year career.    

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23 hours ago, Uli2001 said:

Is "nerd" offensive now? I must be getting old.

No, but using terms like "nerd baseball" makes you sound like a gym teacher from 1983.  Are you going to send Ogre to beat up Mike Elias?

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1 hour ago, Frobby said:

 

In fairness to the OP, I don’t think he was arguing that Alomar was better than Trout.   He was arguing that the total value of Alomar’s 17-year career was better than the value of Trout’s 9-year career.    

I'll go ahead and argue that Trout's 9-year career is more valuable than Alomar's entire career.  Trout is basically Ty Cobb or Mickey Mantle in their primes.  There aren't too many players whose entire careers I wouldn't swap out for the first 10 years of Cobb or Mantle.  

Trout leads the league in like five major things every single year, like OPS and total bases and runs.  Alomar led his leagues in runs, plate appearances, and sac flies, once each.

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On the defensive side, you could spot Alomar ~3 wins for defense (essentially giving him 15 runs above average for his defense, instead of 15 runs below.)  and Trout would still beat Alomar.  You don't really need advanced metrics to know that Trout is in the same category as Mantle and Willie Mays, and blows Robbie A out of the water.

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22 minutes ago, Aglets said:

Who was best Hall of Famer to never get a ring?

Ted?

Ted/ Bonds/Cobb (not in any particular order) off the top of my head. 

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2 hours ago, Aglets said:

 

Who was best Hall of Famer to never get a ring ???

Ted ???

 

 

 

1 hour ago, O's84 said:

 

Ted/ Bonds/Cobb (not in any particular order), off the top of my head. 

 

o

 

Ernie Banks ........ at least Ted Williams, Barry Bonds, and Ty Cobb all got to play in (at least) 1 World Series each.

 

o

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