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Did he tag him? Orioles lose 4-3 in 11

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7 minutes ago, weams said:

Evidently not. 

Based on Reynolds review it looks like he did or at least not conclusive enough to prove he didn't and overturn the call on the field.

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1 hour ago, Chavez Ravine said:

What is the actual rule in a case like that? If the replay ump had concluded that neither plate touching nor tagging occurred what happens then? In the Fred Merkle case the umpire on the field  called the famous out. It does look like Sisco's leg is touching home plate when he has possession of the ball....which is all you have to do in a case when the runner misses the plate and runs off toward the dugout. But did Sisco have to make an actual appeal to the umpire to have that count?

I would think that if the tag was never made and the runner never touched the plate, the runner is out as soon as he "leaves the baseline" to go celebrate with his teammates.

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Did he Tag? Did he touch? Did he drop? Is he out or in?

Is this baseball or Schrödinger’s cat?

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Ok, so I guess Gurriel did touch the plate. If Sisco tags him, this is a moot point. I don't know what he's thinking just grabbing the ball and holding it up in the air. Is he trying to convince people that he caught the ball? He completely forgot that he has to tag the runner even if he did catch the ball which he didn't. Wilkerson made a great throw. Villar made a great throw. Sisco forgets how to play his position. How do you forget that you have to tag the runner? Hopefully, Severino is able to return to the lineup soon.

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18 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Ok, so I guess Gurriel did touch the plate. If Sisco tags him, this is a moot point. I don't know what he's thinking just grabbing the ball and holding it up in the air. Is he trying to convince people that he caught the ball? He completely forgot that he has to tag the runner even if he did catch the ball which he didn't. Wilkerson made a great throw. Villar made a great throw. Sisco forgets how to play his position. How do you forget that you have to tag the runner? Hopefully, Severino is able to return to the lineup soon.

I THINK what happened is that Sisco dropped the ball trying to make the takg, hoped the ump didn't see it, and quickly picked up the ball and held it up to try to fool the ump into thinking he still had it.   Meanwhile, the runner tagging, or not tagging, the plate was kind of out of his field of view so he probably figured that he had touched the plate and his only hope was to fool the ump into thinking he hadn't dropped the ball.

Kind of like slowing down immediately when you see a cop when you are speeding... I do it but I always feel like I am drawing attention to the fact that I WAS  speeding.    If Sisco had immediately tried to pick up the ball and tag the runner it would blow any opportunity for the hope that the ump hadn't seen the ball fall out of his hand, basically an admission of guilt that yes, I did drop the ball.

Anyway, that may explain his actions or his thinking in that instant, but it doesn't excuse it.   He had an opportunity to tag the runner out and didn't do it.

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30 minutes ago, SteveA said:

I would think that if the tag was never made and the runner never touched the plate, the runner is out as soon as he "leaves the baseline" to go celebrate with his teammates.

That is correct under the current rules.  However, he was called safe by the umpire and upheld on review.  If the umpire does not see a runner touch home, he will not signal safe usually.  So that usually does not lead to the walking off the field scenario which was the case, say in the Merkle situation (which is no longer the rule either- the game is over once the run crosses the plate, runners at first no longer have to touch second in that same situation.) 

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This would have been much more fun than last night.   An account of the 1908 game that enshrined Fred Merkle in baseball lore... Johnny Evers had done the same play earlier in the season and Hank O'Day had been the umpire and didn't see it then or didn't call it, but they both knew what was up.   Joe McGinnity did too and that is why he intercepted the ball and sends Mathewson to go get Merkle in the clubhouse....lol.  

 

"A few weeks before this, the Cubs were playing the Pirates when the same thing happened. Johnny Evers knows the rule. Even if the winning run scores the runner on first has to advance to second to erase the chance of a force out.  Simple.  If the runner doesn't touch second the play is still alive.  In the Pirates game Evers had gotten the ball, stepped on second and told the umpire the runner was out.  The umpire hadn't seen the play so the run in that game counted.  But luck today is with the Cubs.  The umpire from that game who had not been on the lookout for the runner touching second is the behind the plate umpire, Hank O'Day.  He knows that Evers knows the rules and he sees what Evers is up to.

The noise is unbelievable.  How anyone hears anything clearly is amazing but Evers has a clear idea of what needs to be done.  He is screaming, shrieking to Solly Hoffman. "Gimme the ball, damnit!  Come on Solly!"  People swarm everywhere. Fans, sportswriters and members of both teams running for the clubhouse.  Police men, the few that are on hand, try to keep order but there are just not enough to really do anything about it.  They basically try to make sure no one was getting trampled.

Hoffman tosses the ball to Evers but Joe McGinnity, one of the Giants' great pitchers, intercepts the throw.  Evers, Joe Tinker and McGinnity wrestle for the ball while Pfister and Frank Chance try to get the umpire's attention.  McGinnity gets free from the Cubs long enough to throw the ball somewhere into the crowd. If this were a cartoon (and it wasn't too far off) McGinnity would be dusting off his hands and walking proudly off.  There is no way the Cubs will find the ball in that swirling mass of humanity and confusion.  The Giants have won.  The game is over.  Except it still isn't.

Merkle is blissfully unaware at this point that anything other than a drunken bacchanal for the fans is taking place on the field.  That is until Christy Mathewson, the "Christian Gentleman" comes desperately looking for Merkle to get him back to second base.  As Merkle returns to the field, trying to rebuckle his pants as he runs, possibly just in socks, a Cubs relief pitcher (which in 1908 means a spectator in uniform) is fighting with a fan.  Rube Kroh sees McGinnity throw the ball into the crowd and somehow sees who picks up the ball.  Kroh sprints after the fan and wrestles with him.  Undoubtedly, the drunken fans have no idea what the hell is happening and see only a hated rival attacking their brethren so this becomes a hell of a struggle.  Kroh pounds the fan over the head, crushing his bowler hat, and steals the ball back.  This is getting closer and closer to a cartoon every moment and you can almost envision stars and birds swirling around the fan's head while a bump slowly grows out of his head.

Kroh throws to Evers who holds the ball straight in the air for the umpire to see and jumps up and down on the bag.  The Cubs have turned the never before or after seen Center field to opposing pitcher to fan to relief pitcher to second base force out play.  The umpire at second base hasn't seen Merkle run for the clubhouse before reaching second but the home plate umpire has.  "Merkle never reached second base.  The runner is out.  The run doesn't count.  The inning is over.""

https://baseballeras.blogspot.com/2013/05/forgivingbaseballscapegoatsfredmerkle.html

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18 minutes ago, SteveA said:

I THINK what happened is that Sisco dropped the ball trying to make the takg, hoped the ump didn't see it, and quickly picked up the ball and held it up to try to fool the ump into thinking he still had it.   Meanwhile, the runner tagging, or not tagging, the plate was kind of out of his field of view so he probably figured that he had touched the plate and his only hope was to fool the ump into thinking he hadn't dropped the ball.

Kind of like slowing down immediately when you see a cop when you are speeding... I do it but I always feel like I am drawing attention to the fact that I WAS  speeding.    If Sisco had immediately tried to pick up the ball and tag the runner it would blow any opportunity for the hope that the ump hadn't seen the ball fall out of his hand, basically an admission of guilt that yes, I did drop the ball.

Anyway, that may explain his actions or his thinking in that instant, but it doesn't excuse it.   He had an opportunity to tag the runner out and didn't do it.

Were in the age of replay challenge.  It wouldn't be hard to see on a challenge to see that he never tagged him.  Poor thinking by Sisco.

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Last night final play gives ammunition both to the Sisco apologists and to those Who questioned whether his office will compensate for his defense. Sisco is not the best catcher we have, He is not even number two. I’m still happy to give him some more time to show what he can or cannot do, But last night overall was not a reason for optimism.

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2 hours ago, SteveA said:

I would think that if the tag was never made and the runner never touched the plate, the runner is out as soon as he "leaves the baseline" to go celebrate with his teammates.

Even if the umpire on the field called him safe? (Or out for that matter).

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4 hours ago, yeoledugger said:

 

The runner did not touch the plate. The catcher did not tag the runner. A run was not scored and an out was not recorded. Therefore, yesterday’s game is still live. I figure all that Sisco needs to do is tag Gurriel before today’s game commences and Hyde needs to appeal the MLB to reverse its decision. 

Game over - O’s Win! 😉

 

o

 

Bernie Carbo was not out nor safe because he never touched home plate, and Elrod Hendricks never tagged him ........ subsequently, Game 1 of the 1970 World Series has not yet been completed, and anything that has happened since then must be expunged from the record books until the Orioles and the Reds complete that game (and that World Series.)

 

 

prod_9252-jx1e46_display_image.jpg?1309032970

 

o

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15 minutes ago, OFFNY said:

o

 

Bernie Carbo was not out nor safe because he never touched home plate, and Elrod Hendricks never tagged him ........ subsequently, Game 1 of the 1970 World Series has not yet been completed, and anything that has happened since then must be expunged from the record books until the Orioles and the Reds complete that game (and that World Series.)

 

 

prod_9252-jx1e46_display_image.jpg?1309032970

 

o

Nope, when Bud Selig cancelled baseball in August 1994 that ended the 1970 World Series too.

Everything started fresh in 1995.

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2 hours ago, Philip said:

Last night final play gives ammunition both to the Sisco apologists and to those Who questioned whether his office will compensate for his defense. Sisco is not the best catcher we have, He is not even number two. I’m still happy to give him some more time to show what he can or cannot do, But last night overall was not a reason for optimism.

I agree.  It is amazing he tried to deke the umpire by showing the ball rather than  keeping the tag on the runner.  Poorly executed...first,  any catcher HAS to catch that throw in a game winning situation and then he had to have known he had him blocked...just keep the tag on.   Sisco had best find another position..Adley is coming. 

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