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Would you trade Means?

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2 minutes ago, jerios55 said:

So while the view point is not necessarily the best, I'm going to use Kuechel as a comparison (since we've have a thread making the comparison).  He signed 1 yr 13 mill, and not for a full season. 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/12/mlbtr-poll-how-much-will-dallas-keuchel-earn-in-free-agency.html

The poll here had 65% of people thinking he'd get 4-5 yrs at an average around ~20 million.

I get that this team is going to be bad, but to really develop guys, we need to have some competent pitchers going.  With 5.5 years of control left, you'd be looking at 110 mill in value (which is assuming a lot at this point, obviously).  I doubt anyone if willing to offer even half of that value.  Way to many variables after 0.5 seasons for someone to offer something most of us would be excited about.

July 2020 or July 2021 if he is still pitching this way and we are still overall looking like 2-3 years out, I would imagine you'd be in good position to find a team that will offer value that would make sense for us to consider a move.  

Again, Kuechel may not be the best comparison whether money/talent/experience.  However, we are unlikely to even sign Cobb (I'm talking about the healthy version we thought would help, clearly not the broken one we got)/Cashner level deals in FA, so the value to this team may even be higher.  Losing is one thing and young guys can push through to a point.  If pitching is even worse (losing Cashner/Bundy/Means would put even more strain on a bad bullpen) then I think you stunt some of the development of both positional talent trying to hit 5 run homers and relievers trying to strike out the side on 1 pitch (I think trying too hard at times is part of why Givens has looked bad this year and why there was a improvement in Brach after he left).  

I do think there is 0% reason to keep Cashner this year and likely a good reason to trade Bundy this year.  If you do all 3 (or even Cashner/Means) I think you crush the morale that this team has right now.  That includes fans.  Losing is one thing, but having Santander, Stewart, Sisco, Means and other young guys makes it tolerable, at least for me.  We need pitching and his cost/control is something that would be extremely hard to lose.

 

 

Not to be flippant, but who cares. These men are being paid to do a job (win or lose). And half of them wouldn't even have jobs if the Orioles weren't such a terrible team. We need young prospects more than we need pitching. Stop gap pitchers can be signed. Young, high end prospects cannot unless you draft them. 

I'm not saying they should sell low on any of their players, but it seems like now is definitely the time to at least listen to offers for Means, Mancini and Cashner. You could argue that their value will never be higher. 

The Tigers seems to be in a similar situation with Matt Boyd and they are clearly entertaining offers for him. We should be doing the same with Means. If I were Elias I'd be calling the Astros (rumored to be interested in Boyd) and trying to pry away Whitley, James or Tucker. They're desperate for another reliable SP. 

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1 hour ago, Ruzious said:

You're not really old unless you remember Greg Ballard from the Washington Bullets.

...Or Kaye Ballard from the tv show "The Mothers-In-Law".  

Now, there’s a show I bet I haven’t thought about even once in the last 40 years.    It wasn’t bad, though.    

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1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

It really depends on what the market is (for Means). The only player on the active roster who should be untouchable is Sisco. That's it. No one else has the potential to be part of the team's future (when they're good again). If we get solid offers for any of the other players they should be moved as well. Mancini, Bundy, Cashner, etc. And by solid offers I'm not talking about taking on retreads like Villar, I'm talking about stocking our minor league system with more young prospects. And honestly, we shouldn't be worried about what our starting pitching staff will look like without those players. Stop gaps can be signed to one year deals (if need be). It won't be pretty, but I'm willing to suffer through one more year of unwatchable baseball if it expedites the rebuild process by a few years.  

Sisco is not untouchable. No one is untouchable. I doubt anyone will even ask about him, but no one is untouchable, especially on THIS team.

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2 minutes ago, Philip said:

Sisco is not untouchable. No one is untouchable. I doubt anyone will even ask about him, but no one is untouchable, especially on THIS team.

How can any catcher be untouchable, with Rutschman waiting in the wings?    I’m in no hurry to trade Sisco, but if other teams were interested in him, I’d certainly listen.   

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1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I mean, it's really not. You set an internal price and if other teams don't meet it you keep him. It's that simple. The Orioles should be letting every team in baseball know that they're entire active roster is available except for Sisco (for the right price). They don't "have" to trade these players, but they certainly should be entertaining offers. 

I think you missed the word realistic in my post. I agree with your sentiment, but strongly doubt other teams will offer close to what I would want back. That's my point. This post below does a better job of spelling out why I don't think it's realistic. Another team would probably need offer something like $60m in FV just to entertain an offer, all for a guy who has a FIP over 4 and has only done this for 1/2 season. I'd love a team to do that, but just don't think it's realistic.

34 minutes ago, jerios55 said:

I get that this team is going to be bad, but to really develop guys, we need to have some competent pitchers going.  With 5.5 years of control left, you'd be looking at 110 mill in value (which is assuming a lot at this point, obviously).  I doubt anyone if willing to offer even half of that value.  Way to many variables after 0.5 seasons for someone to offer something most of us would be excited about.

 

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34 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Not to be flippant, but who cares. These men are being paid to do a job (win or lose). And half of them wouldn't even have jobs if the Orioles weren't such a terrible team. We need young prospects more than we need pitching. Stop gap pitchers can be signed. Young, high end prospects cannot unless you draft them. 

I'm not saying they should sell low on any of their players, but it seems like now is definitely the time to at least listen to offers for Means, Mancini and Cashner. You could argue that their value will never be higher. 

The Tigers seems to be in a similar situation with Matt Boyd and they are clearly entertaining offers for him. We should be doing the same with Means. If I were Elias I'd be calling the Astros (rumored to be interested in Boyd) and trying to pry away Whitley, James or Tucker. They're desperate for another reliable SP. 

First off, Boyd is arbitration eligible this year, which would be more equivalent to the 2021 season for Means and part of why I listed that as a better time to trade him.  As a result he has 500+ IP for teams to evaluate at a Major League level.  I don't see this as a similar situation.

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=15440&position=P

Last years team most would agree should have been better.  Maybe you don't think morale should matter because they are grown men, but I call BS.  Most are just as human as the rest of us, they are just more gifted athletically.  There is definitively losers mentalities and that will impact performance and long term development.  If no one on this team is here, maybe you're right it doesn't matter. 

But I don't believe the return this year will be worth it for all the reasons, that is just an influencing factor.

edit: I wrote out BS and thought it would censor.  My bad...

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If we could get someone like a Kyle Tucker from Houston, who are in need of starting pitching and have a lot of OF depth, sure I'd trade him.  Not sure if Houston would.

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I’m of the mindset that any player can be traded if the return is good enough.    I’d be surprised if we could get a huge haul for Means based on one good half-season.    But if some team wanted to compensate us as if Means would perform this way for the next 5 seasons, I’d probably jump at that.  

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13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

How can any catcher be untouchable, with Rutschman waiting in the wings?    I’m in no hurry to trade Sisco, but if other teams were interested in him, I’d certainly listen.   

Yeah, with Severino performing well enough, Sisco is more fair game than Means to me.

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8 minutes ago, toughbuff1 said:

If we could get someone like a Kyle Tucker from Houston, who are in need of starting pitching and have a lot of OF depth, sure I'd trade him.  Not sure if Houston would.

They could get a number of pitchers better than Means if they want to trade Kyle Tucker. 

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30 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Not to be flippant, but who cares. These men are being paid to do a job (win or lose). And half of them wouldn't even have jobs if the Orioles weren't such a terrible team. We need young prospects more than we need pitching. Stop gap pitchers can be signed. Young, high end prospects cannot unless you draft them. 

I'm not saying they should sell low on any of their players, but it seems like now is definitely the time to at least listen to offers for Means, Mancini and Cashner. You could argue that their value will never be higher. 

The Tigers seems to be in a similar situation with Matt Boyd and they are clearly entertaining offers for him. We should be doing the same with Means. If I were Elias I'd be calling the Astros (rumored to be interested in Boyd) and trying to pry away Whitley, James or Tucker. They're desperate for another reliable SP. 

I really disagree with this. Clubhouse culture, morale, all the behind-the-scenes stuff definitely matters to a winning ballclub, especially over a 162 game season. You can have all the talent in the world - but it takes discipline, dedication, preparation, etc to make the most of that talent and succeed at the top level. I think Hyde's biggest job this year is to create the organizational culture he believes will be successful and have it ready so that future players come into a situation where they can succeed.

John Means has pitched 86 pro innings. He's started 14 games. He's been great - but the numbers suggest he isn't this good. He was also out with a shoulder strain earlier in the year. I don't think any smart Front Office is going to look at that and fall over themselves to trade for John Means. The value the O's would get for him at this point would not exceed his possible future value. If he's pitching great next year - different story.

And for the Astros - Tucker or Whitley gets them Stroman or Bumgarner. John Means isn't bringing that back at this point.

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I think it depends what you consider a Wow offer.  I think you have to look at past trades and define what it would take and if the other team would do that deal.  These are just a few of names moved at the deadline in the last few years.  Now I don't think he gets these returns but he may at some point if he continues to pitch like he has at some point.  

Machado to LA.

Diaz, Kremer, Bannon, Pop, Valera

Chapman to Chicago

Torres, Mckinney, Warren Chris Crawford

Quintana to the Cubs ( this is the deal you would hope to get if you get hijm pitching good a year from now.  I big time bat and higer level ceiling starter.

Eloy Jiminez, Dylan Cease, Flete, Rose

Chris Archer to Pirates

Austin Meadows, and Tyler Glasnow

 

 

 

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Means Just doesn’t have enough of a track record to be worth anything to anybody except us at this point in time. I think you could make a strong argument for trading him next season, because we have so many other, better pitchers on the way. And if he does well the rest of the season and the first part of next then he might bring back a good return. But until and unless, it’s just silly to even consider the possibility

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16 hours ago, DocJJ said:

On the one hand, we are in full rebuild mode- so no one should be considered untouchable.    

On the other hand, he's only 26, coming off an All-Star, ROY level campaign, is under team control for a while, and has been our best home-grown Starting pitcher... so I'd be most reluctant to part with him.   But what if someone made us a "WOW" offer?

 

I’d like to hold on to him. I don’t think anyone is going to offer a Wow offer. 

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5 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

 

I couldn't remember what happened first. I also don't really remember how bad the shoulder injury was, though I do remember we were all pissed about and thinking that this could only happen to the Orioles.  

 

I'll leave the COLOfonts to @OFFNY 

 

o

 

Nobody does the colors and fonts like OFFNY ........ nobody.

 

o

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