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I really want to keep Villar (Update: Traded to Marlins for LHS Easton Lucas)

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3 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

The bolded part is being misinterpreted by you.

If the Orioles didn't want to go to arbitration with Villar they could've approached him about a compromise or extension. I think you would have heard rumors at very least from Roch about the subject if it happened.

I believe the conversation with the player did not happen because Elias believed he could get an offer that he thought was acceptable.

My point and everyone that has voiced concern over the way this deal was handled has stated trade him or extend him hoping for a better return later. Villar was statistically a very good player this year do you deny that?

You don't know what Elias was asking for or turned down anymore than I do.

Since the only deal made so far was Cashner I don't believe that you can blindly give Elias the benefit of the doubt in his ability to trade. He is indeed doing a job that he's never held before.

IMO and experience.... Trading is a Sales Skill and typically Statistic and Analytics geeks aren't very good sales people.

Obviously this post and the previous one are my opinions. Since they are simply that there is no need for me to make anything up.

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

You say that you don't know what happened and I don't know what happened and I completely agree with that. You're right.

But for 48+ hours, you've criticized Elias in every way possible. I guess I'm confused about why you're following if you choose such a negative and critical slant at every turn.

Obviously you have every right to your opinion. And you may even be correct. But you've made it clear you're not gonna stop criticizing so I don't understand a need to continue engaging.

Happy holidays. Unload on me all you like. I give.

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21 minutes ago, 7Mo said:

You say that you don't know what happened and I don't know what happened and I completely agree with that. You're right.

But for 48+ hours, you've criticized Elias in every way possible. I guess I'm confused about why you're following if you choose such a negative and critical slant at every turn.

Obviously you have every right to your opinion. And you may even be correct. But you've made it clear you're not gonna stop criticizing so I don't understand a need to continue engaging.

Happy holidays. Unload on me all you like. I give.

I'm not unloading on you, I was simply responding to you suggesting that I was making stuff up..... I am not going to change my mind on how the Villar thing has been handled. I don't expect you to change yours. You also have every right to your opinion also and that is why we have a discussion board.

If we all agreed this would be a very boring place. Its acceptable to agree to disagree.

Happy Holidays and Cheers!

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On this forum I’ve been very pro-Elias, and to be frank I understand the economics behind this move.

There is a bit of “soulless tank machine” in this move (if it’s being done within a vacuum; ie we put Villar on waivers to pinch pennies).

Part of me holds out hope that this isn’t being done in a vacuum, that there is something we all don’t know: a trade for a better infielder, a reworked contract, that Villar is a complete clubhouse cancer, etc.

I don’t love the move but I’m not gonna lose sleep over it. Villar doesn’t save 2020 from itself. He’s just a player that was enjoyable to watch and he won’t fill that role next year.
 

If this is what Elias needed to do, then I defer to his judgement. I’ve seen him make a lot of changes to this organization already so he’s earned my cautious approval to do whatever it is. Keep the rebuild moving and show me an Orioles Champion within the next five years. For now, next man up.

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1 minute ago, Win Column said:

This whole thing strikes me as a prime reason why the current MLB compensation structure should be demolished and replaced.

Because a player might reach free agency more quickly?

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1 minute ago, Win Column said:

This whole thing strikes me as a prime reason why the current MLB compensation structure should be demolished and replaced.

I agree with you .... If it weren't money motivated no team would DFA a player after the season Villar had. And he would certainly have trade value.

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20 minutes ago, Enjoy Terror said:

On this forum I’ve been very pro-Elias, and to be frank I understand the economics behind this move.

There is a bit of “soulless tank machine” in this move (if it’s being done within a vacuum; ie we put Villar on waivers to pinch pennies).

Part of me holds out hope that this isn’t being done in a vacuum, that there is something we all don’t know: a trade for a better infielder, a reworked contract, that Villar is a complete clubhouse cancer, etc.

I don’t love the move but I’m not gonna lose sleep over it. Villar doesn’t save 2020 from itself. He’s just a player that was enjoyable to watch and he won’t fill that role next year.
 

If this is what Elias needed to do, then I defer to his judgement. I’ve seen him make a lot of changes to this organization already so he’s earned my cautious approval to do whatever it is. Keep the rebuild moving and show me an Orioles Champion within the next five years. For now, next man up.

 

Nice post! I think we would have heard it through the MASN guys if JV was a problem in the club house.

I'm being genuine when I ask what changes he's made that you are alluding to?

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4 hours ago, Darkhawk said:

If a team expected to lose 100+ games is soulless for not wanting to pay 10 million or so to a player coming off a 4 WAR season what does that make all of the contenders who have also decided that said player is not worth 10 million? 

They might already have a good Shortstop.  

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7 minutes ago, atomic said:

They might already have a good Shortstop.  

An perhaps the asking price for Villar was too high. We still don't know if the DFA action was a chess move or not. 

Maybe Elias is just difficult to deal with? Things that will likely come out down the road.

Who knows ....but I just  don't buy all the negative stuff about Villar after watching him play last season.

I don't know how much more he could've done.

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Villar is likely on the team if the Orioles weren't already committed to paying Davis and Cobb a combined $35M payroll in 2020. It's a bit of a cold process, but the Astroball model calls for bare bones payroll in the rebuilding phase. 

When the Orioles start (hopefully) improving in 2021-23 timeframe if they pull a stunt like this with a 4 WAR player then I'll be upset. Going to give Elias the benefit of the doubt for now. 

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50 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I'm being genuine when I ask what changes he's made that you are alluding to?

The very first Oriole J2 class and the organizational imperative to develop an international presence by developing scouting abroad. Peter Angelos was morally opposed to the buscone system and refused to enter the market for Latino players. To me this is proof that PA no longer involved in the operations of the Orioles. 

The hiring of an analytics team to help scout and develop players. Sig Mejdal and his crew. Eve Rosenbaum, director of baseball development, a new position. Matt Blood, director of player development, and Chris Holt, director of pitching, are both knee deep in Kyle Boddy’s DriveLine baseball venture (Boddy himself is now Cinci’s director of pitching).

We just hired a new sports psychologist. 

Remember when Britton called out the O’s because the Yankees were miles ahead of the O’s in terms of supporting their pitchers with film study and other aids?

The introduction of Edgertronic cameras in spring training. The organizational focus on spinrates. K-vest technology.

Not coincidentally this is the first year the minor league pitching has looked pretty decent.

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1 hour ago, Win Column said:

This whole thing strikes me as a prime reason why the current MLB compensation structure should be demolished and replaced.

It's one of those things that makes a strike look possible, for sure.

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7 hours ago, Enjoy Terror said:

The very first Oriole J2 class and the organizational imperative to develop an international presence by developing scouting abroad. Peter Angelos was morally opposed to the buscone system and refused to enter the market for Latino players. To me this is proof that PA no longer involved in the operations of the Orioles. 

The hiring of an analytics team to help scout and develop players. Sig Mejdal and his crew. Eve Rosenbaum, director of baseball development, a new position. Matt Blood, director of player development, and Chris Holt, director of pitching, are both knee deep in Kyle Boddy’s DriveLine baseball venture (Boddy himself is now Cinci’s director of pitching).

We just hired a new sports psychologist. 

Remember when Britton called out the O’s because the Yankees were miles ahead of the O’s in terms of supporting their pitchers with film study and other aids?

The introduction of Edgertronic cameras in spring training. The organizational focus on spinrates. K-vest technology.

Not coincidentally this is the first year the minor league pitching has looked pretty decent.

Is that indicative of Elias or Angelos' Sons. I think Duquette was starting to delve into that market. Wasn't Duquette involved in the Mesa brothers sweepstakes?

I've stated over and over that he's replaced or hired a ton of new people on the management side. Again is that on him or the Angelos' boys for allowing it. I won't believe that Duquette or other prior GM weren't requesting more staff. As I recall several GMs clashed with Peter over similar issues

"We just hired a new sports psychologist."   I didn't catch this but I'm not sure if there is truly an impact.

The minor league pitchers have had a very good season. Is the success a result of changes or the fact that 14 of our top 20 prospects are pitchers?

I am willing to wait and see on the things you've mentioned.

I will agree that the organization had its best year of international signing. However they stuck to Peter's philosophy of not giving out a bug bonus to a top rated guy.

The Yankees gave all but $300,000 of their bonus pool to 1 guy. The Orioles didnt give any single player more than 450K

https://www.pressboxonline.com/2019/07/05/jim-henneman-will-orioles-international-haul-bring-quality-time-will-tell

 

So far I'm not impressed with his trade prowess. I was unimpressed by the return for Cashner. I still cant believe there was 0 interest in Villar. We will know in the next 36 hours how many teams want Villar on a claim.

I think its totally possible that Elias could be great at ll the things you mention. I will be really happy if thats the case indeed look forward to it. In fact , I would get no satisfaction out of his failing.

But as I mentioned in another post, I also think its possible that he is not good at trading. It takes a completely different skill set than that of a statistics or analytic guy.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

 

Nice post! I think we would have heard it through the MASN guys if JV was a problem in the club house.

Agreed.   Really the worst you hear about him is that he has lapses of concentration on defense or on the bases.    And that just tells be he could be even better than he is.   

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