Jump to content
weams

Roch: Pitching In

Recommended Posts

As to pitching inside, when I look at the photos of Zimmerman and Kremer that appear with the Minor league summaries, every time I think "these guys aren't going to have any issue with pitching inside". There is an intensity in their eyes that reeks of confidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, mdbdotcom said:

He didn't discuss why he hasn't been able to fix any of it in more than 2/3 of a season. Sounds like a guy making excuses for coaching a pitching staff that produces exceptionally bad results..

My does he need excuses? The guys on the staff other than Bundy and Givens were expected to be this bad. Means has far exceeded expectations.  I dont see other teams filling a pitching staff with waiver claims and being great..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, RZNJ said:

In "the good old days" the Orioles had good pitchers and continuity. George Bamberger. Ray Miller.  They were probably good coaches but probably not as great as most of us think.  They had good pitchers to work with.  Seniority and tenure command some respect.  

Most development of pitchers happens in the minor leagues.  Also having a pitchers park always makes your pitching better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Frobby said:

Brocail sounds a little frustrated.    I think he’s the most vulnerable of our coaches to being replaced.  It’s a lousy staff, but 5.91 ERA?

I don't think this is Brocail's fault anymore than it's Hyde's. And I don't believe it's his either. We are getting pitchers out of the dumpster (waiver wire). Out of desperation we are recalling guys from AAA that have 6-7+ ERAs. The outcome is predictable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, atomic said:

My does he need excuses? The guys on the staff other than Bundy and Givens were expected to be this bad. Means has far exceeded expectations.  I dont see other teams filling a pitching staff with waiver claims and being great..

I saw an interview with Means on MASN with Rob Long. Good story. Means was home last year after the milb season ended and got a call saying we wanted him to pitch a little. 

Means talked about how getting hammered in BOS drove his entire offseason. He knew we hired Elias so he independently went to a place with analytical technology and learned where/how to throw his pitches. 

Analytics isn’t some miracle, but it’s all strategy. Brocail gives some long winded interview talking about bad strategy. Doesn’t mention analytics once. We were constructed to be a 100 loss team. We were told to trust this new science and it would work out. So far I’ve seen a theory of lots of losing. That’s not very innovative. 

Hyde was our 8th choice as manager and Brocail was probably in the teens to be pitching coach. I don’t see anyone chomping at the bit to take either job this offseason. 

If the answer to the lack of analytics at the MLB level is that our pitchers up here are lost causes, well then I have to really respect Elias’s opinion. Because they are. 

I think Bundy, with his offspeed pitches, could benefit from analytics. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, atomic said:

Most development of pitchers happens in the minor leagues.  Also having a pitchers park always makes your pitching better.

I think it’s going to be interesting to see whether our pitchers come to the majors better prepared than they did in the MacPhail/Duquette eras.    I’ve gotten the clear impression that our MiL pitchers are being forced to develop and rely on their secondary pitchers more, and perhaps they’re being schooled on working inside, too.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“I look back over my career and go, ‘OK, what made me good?’” he said. “My first three years I didn’t pitch in, learned how to pitch in and things got a lot easier. And when you talk to other guys that went through the same thing, ‘Man, I had struggles until I learned how to pitch in. I had struggles until I learned how to pitch up and change eye levels.’

Doug Brocail's career era was 4.00. When he asked "ok, what made me good?" was it meant to be ironic? 

In all seriousness his pitching techniques / strategies sound a bit dated to me. He's talking about brushing guys back which seems like an old school mentality. What he should be preaching is control, hitting your spots and painting the corners, especially when you're ahead in the count. Too many times I've seen pitchers on this staff groove one right down the middle in an 0-2 count.  And I get the idea of wanting to get ahead in the count in general, but telling the world that you'e basically teaching your pitchers to groove the first pitch right down the middle doesn't seem like the best move to me. 

All that said, this staff doesn't have the talent to execute and strategy, whether it's Brocail's or someone else's. That said, part of me is hoping that Brocail isn't still around when they start promoting some of the younger more talented pitchers. I like to see someone who's more analytical and modern in their pitching approach groom / mentor them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Groove the first pitch right down the middle?  Do you have that quote?

The way that one to Correa was grooved right down the middle?  Next one will probably hit the upper deck or the warehouse.  It was that bad and indefensible.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Groove the first pitch right down the middle?  Do you have that quote?

No I don't. The point I was making is that with the talent level of our pitching staff telling them they have to throw the first pitch for a strike probably equates to them throwing one down the middle 90% of the time. They don't have the ability to locate pitches with any consistency. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

No I don't. The point I was making is that with the talent level of our pitching staff telling them they have to throw the first pitch for a strike probably equates to them throwing one down the middle 90% of the time. They don't have the ability to locate pitches with any consistency. 

Telling a pitcher that it's imperative to get ahead of the hitter with a first pitch strike is something every pitching coach in the history of the game teaches. If you can't locate pitch one then you likely can't consistently locate pitch 2,3,4, or 5 and it doesn't matted who your pitching coach is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Telling a pitcher that it's imperative to get ahead of the hitter with a first pitch strike is something every pitching coach in the history of the game teaches. If you can't locate pitch one then you likely can't consistently locate pitch 2,3,4, or 5 and it doesn't matted who your pitching coach is.

Isn't that the point I originally made? That the current staff doesn't have the talent or ability to execute that strategy? It also doesn't make sense for a pitching coach to basically tell the league that every first pitch will be a strike. He didn't say get ahead in the count, he specifically said he wanted them to throw the first pitch for a strike. That approach / strategy might work when you're coaching your son's little league games, but these are professional baseball players. Unless they're throwing 100 mph there's no reason they shouldn't be able to locate pitches at this level. And the first pitch doesn't necessarily have to always be a strike for you to work ahead in the count. You can also get a strike without throwing a strike. 

And for this group I 100% agree, it doesn't matter who their pitching coach is, but when the pitchers that "matter" are promoted I hope we have someone better teaching them. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Doug Brocail's career era was 4.00. When he asked "ok, what made me good?" was it meant to be ironic? 

Are you suggesting that the only players who can coach are the ones who performed at the very highest levels?  I think experience shows that most of the best coaches/managers were mediocre professional players.  The peak of Leo Mazzone's playing career was 56 innings in AAA.  Did he only coach from the Costanza perspective: do exactly the opposite of me since I never pitched in the majors?

There's no massive different in approach or coaching or strategy in A ball or the majors.  They just have better players in the majors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, DrungoHazewood said:

Are you suggesting that the only players who can coach are the ones who performed at the very highest levels?  I think experience shows that most of the best coaches/managers were mediocre professional players.  The peak of Leo Mazzone's playing career was 56 innings in AAA.  Did he only coach from the Costanza perspective: do exactly the opposite of me since I never pitched in the majors?

There's no massive different in approach or coaching or strategy in A ball or the majors.  They just have better players in the majors.

Brocail's quote wasn't about what he learned from his career, it was specifically about what made him good. That makes me wonder if he's somewhat delusional because he wasn't a very good pitcher. I'm not saying you have to be a good player to be a good coach, but if you think you were good (and weren't) and are teaching those same strategies that actually didn't make you successful then it seems like a real problem to me. 

I also think you're naive if you don't think there are different pitching strategies from team to team. I'm talking strategies that are tailored to each individual pitcher. One team might tell a guy to hammer fastballs in the zone and another team might tell him to throw his slider more. It's not a one hat fits all situation and I think it can really make a difference when developing younger players in particular. Especially for a team that has demonstrated the inability to consistently develop young pitchers since the 80s. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Isn't that the point I originally made? That the current staff doesn't have the talent or ability to execute that strategy? It also doesn't make sense for a pitching coach to basically tell the league that every first pitch will be a strike. He didn't say get ahead in the count, he specifically said he wanted them to throw the first pitch for a strike. That approach / strategy might work when you're coaching your son's little league games, but these are professional baseball players. Unless they're throwing 100 mph there's no reason they shouldn't be able to locate pitches at this level. And the first pitch doesn't necessarily have to always be a strike for you to work ahead in the count. You can also get a strike without throwing a strike. 

And for this group I 100% agree, it doesn't matter who their pitching coach is, but when the pitchers that "matter" are promoted I hope we have someone better teaching them. 

 

So what should Brocail be saying to these guys?  You think there is better advice.  Are you suggesting "I know you can't locate strike one so I want you to start a slider knee high outside half that finishes below the knees two inches outside so the hitter will chase?

What exactly do you think he should be saying?  I also highly doubt he advocates grooving pitches down the middle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Orioles Information


Orioles News and Information

Daily Organizational Boxscores

News

Tony's Takes

Orioles Roster Resource

Orioles Prospect Information

2018 End of Season Top 30 Prospects List

Prospect Scouting Reports

Statistics

2019 Orioles Stats

2019 Orioles Minor League Stats

Baseball Savant Stats







×
×
  • Create New...