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Aristotelian

Is Sisco Toast?

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19 minutes ago, weams said:

Right. And a Molina or someone got a 65 run saved by framing one year. 

https://www.theringer.com/2017/5/23/16045944/jonathan-lucroy-texas-rangers-pitch-framing-3bfa2f11ae4a

I do understand that each position has its own flawed defensive components that make cross positional evaluative very tenuous by data. Let's just go back to offensive data which is proven to be solid math and say so and so is better because he is a better defender. I can live with that for now. But soon we will have good data points on defense. I feel certain. 

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2 minutes ago, weams said:

I do understand that each position has its own flawed defensive components that make cross positional evaluative very tenuous by data. Let's just go back to offensive data which is proven to be solid math and say so and so is better because he is a better defender. I can live with that for now. But soon we will have good data points on defense. I feel certain. 

That’s a reasonable approach.    But I do suspect the framing metrics have come a long way in the last 6/7 years.   

For what it’s worth, Fangraphs has Sisco at -7.0 framing runs, Severino at -6.9.    BP has Sisco at -.8.1, Severino at -7.5.     So, pretty consistent for both measures and both pretty bad, if you believe these stats.

 

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1 hour ago, wildcard said:

I go back to what I said.  If Elias finds a better cheap talent at catcher Sisco may go this off season.

Please read that to yourself and tell me you realize how silly it is.  If he finds a better talent for less than ML minimum ready to contribute at the ML level, Elias would do that instead of paying Sisco more to do less. No kidding.  I hear rain is wet too.

The point is there won’t be anyone better available for ML minimum.  So, your statement is like me saying if I go on a date with Jennifer Aniston, she will definitely marry me.  The date won’t happen so I will never be wrong but so freaking what.

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22 minutes ago, vatech1994 said:

Please read that to yourself and tell me you realize how silly it is.  If he finds a better talent for less than ML minimum ready to contribute at the ML level, Elias would do that instead of paying Sisco more to do less. No kidding.  I hear rain is wet too.

The point is there won’t be anyone better available for ML minimum.  So, your statement is like me saying if I go on a date with Jennifer Aniston, she will definitely marry me.  The date won’t happen so I will never be wrong but so freaking what.

You're overthinking it.   

Since Elias has been GM he has add Alberto, Ruiz, Armstrong, Brooks, Eades, Wojo,  Shepherd, Blach, Martin, and Smith all for close to the minimum salary.  Some aren't very good but a few have helped the O's this season.    In each case Elias was trying to find a cheap player that is better than what he had.

I don't think the bar is very high to find a cheap catcher that is better than Sisco.  We will see how it turns out.  I think they tender Sicso but look for better talent over the off season.

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23 minutes ago, wildcard said:

You're overthinking it.   

Since Elias has been GM he has add Alberto, Ruiz, Armstrong, Brooks, Eades, Wojo,  Shepherd, Blach, Martin, and Smith all for close to the minimum salary.  Some aren't very good but a few have helped the O's this season.    In each case Elias was trying to find a cheap player that is better than what he had.

I don't think the bar is very high to find a cheap catcher that is better than Sisco.  We will see how it turns out.  I think they tender Sicso but look for better talent over the off season.

You're under-thinking it.  Of course they're going to look for better talent.  They'll do that with every position.  

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28 minutes ago, wildcard said:

You're overthinking it.   

Since Elias has been GM he has add Alberto, Ruiz, Armstrong, Brooks, Eades, Wojo,  Shepherd, Blach, Martin, and Smith all for close to the minimum salary.  Some aren't very good but a few have helped the O's this season.    In each case Elias was trying to find a cheap player that is better than what he had.

I don't think the bar is very high to find a cheap catcher that is better than Sisco.  We will see how it turns out.  I think they tender Sicso but look for better talent over the off season.

You think it is going to be easy to find a guy for free, making the minimum, that is better than Sisco?

I'll disagree.

 

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37 minutes ago, wildcard said:

  I think they tender Sicso but look for better talent over the off season.

Cool, great thoughts.

I think I will stay married with my lovely wife of 24 years,, but keep a look out for Jennifer Aniston just in case she suddenly moves to Orlando and decides she wants me.

Your scenario is probably a few orders of magnitude more probable in that my scenario has about a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of occurring while your scenario has about a 1 in 10,000 chance of occurring.  Young catchers that are ML ready with better credentials than Sisco don’t come available for nothing, but I am sure Elias will get right on scouring around for that possibility.

Since we are devoting time to low probability stuff, shall  we talk about the chances of them drilling for and finding oil in center field at Camden Yards, too?

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11 minutes ago, vatech1994 said:

Cool, great thoughts.

I think I will stay married with my lovely wife of 24 years,, but keep a look out for Jennifer Aniston just in case she suddenly moves to Orlando and decides she wants me.

Your scenario is probably a few orders of magnitude more probable in that my scenario has about a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of occurring while your scenario has about a 1 in 10,000 chance of occurring.  Young catchers that are ML ready with better credentials than Sisco don’t come available for nothing, but I am sure Elias will get right on scouring around for that possibility.

Since we are devoting time to low probability stuff, shall  we talk about the chances of them drilling for and finding oil in center field at Camden Yards, too?

Wieters is putting up a .6 win season, maybe he'll come back for 550K?.

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1 hour ago, wildcard said:

You're overthinking it.   

Since Elias has been GM he has add Alberto, Ruiz, Armstrong, Brooks, Eades, Wojo,  Shepherd, Blach, Martin, and Smith all for close to the minimum salary.  Some aren't very good but a few have helped the O's this season.    In each case Elias was trying to find a cheap player that is better than what he had.

I don't think the bar is very high to find a cheap catcher that is better than Sisco.  We will see how it turns out.  I think they tender Sicso but look for better talent over the off season.

LOL a bunch of bad players and Alberto.  We could always bring Sucre back.  He cant hit or field but he could be had cheap.

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58 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

You think it is going to be easy to find a guy for free, making the minimum, that is better than Sisco?

I'll disagree.

 

Should not be too hard. Sisco is statistically replacement level. Just need to find the next Severino.

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1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

Should not be too hard. Sisco is statistically replacement level. Just need to find the next Severino.

Right, and that's "easy".  Pretty sure every team would be interested in a 1 win catcher for the league minimum.

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1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

Should not be too hard. Sisco is statistically replacement level. Just need to find the next Severino.

Severino was -1.1 War last season when he was 24 the same age as Sisco is now. I can only imagine how this board would react if we released Sisco and he became a star.

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10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right, and that's "easy".  Pretty sure every team would be interested in a 1 win catcher for the league minimum.

I am saying that 0 wins could be an improvement over Sisco. I am willing to concede that the lack of other options keeps him in play for now, but I am convinced that he is not a catcher long term, so what's the point?

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2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I am saying that 0 wins could be an improvement over Sisco. I am willing to concede that the lack of other options keeps him in play for now, but I am convinced that he is not a catcher long term, so what's the point?

The point is to use him as a bridge until Rutschman arrives in 2021 because trying to find a better catcher is a waste of time.

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2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I am saying that 0 wins could be an improvement over Sisco. I am willing to concede that the lack of other options keeps him in play for now, but I am convinced that he is not a catcher long term, so what's the point?

Even if you are sure Sisco won't amount to anything, innings still need to be caught next season.  He's on the 40 man, he's making the minimum. 

So even if you know he we will never get above replacement level, no reason not to keep him around for now.

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