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5 minutes ago, atomic said:

Strasburg was able to  be a free agent long ago. He is making $38 million this season. Scherzer is making $42 million.  

This statement is technically true, but highly misleading.   Both contracts have wild variations in annual salary and the amount deferred.    Strasburg had a $15 mm salary each of the last two years.    This year his salary is $35 mm plus he received a $10 mm signing bonus on July 1; but $30 mm of the $35 mm salary is deferred until 2024-30.    The next four years his salaries are $25 mm ($10 mm deferred), $15 mm, $15 mm and $45 mm ($30 mm deferred).     In the end, it all boils down to him receiving $15 mm in cash each year of his 7-year deal, and then another $70 mm in deferred payments at $10 mm/yr for 7 years.   So $38 mm is neither the actual cash he’s receiving this year ($15 mm) nor the average annual value of his salary ($25 mm without discounting for the deferral, about $23 mm if you discount the deferral).
 

Scherzer is similar.   His entire 2019 salary is deferred, and the only cash he’s receiving this year is a deferred portion of his signing bonus totaling $15 mm.   And his designated salary for 2019 (all deferred) is way higher than what it was the preceding 4 years.   So, the $42 mm you cite is again much higher than the actual cash he’s receiving this year ($15 mm) or the average annual value of his deal ($30 mm without discounts, $27.4 mm with discounts).    
 

I don’t think any of this detracts from the point you were making that the Nats were built in significant part through free agency.    I just want it to be clear that the astronomical salaries you are citing bear very little relationship to the economic reality of what they’re actually receiving this year or what the Nats’ average total outlay for these players is over the life of their deals.   
 

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I was 8 in 1983....too young to really appreciate winning.  I think you have to at least be a teenager to truly appreciate how great winning a title is.....

I can't say I am jealous of the Nats, because honestly it is just refreshing to have a new champion.  In an era where New England wins just about every Super Bowl, Golden State needed injuries just to finally stop winning titles, and Alabama and Clemson simply alternate titles each year, it is nice to have a new dog at the top.  I used to appreciate dynasties in sports but as I got older, I became much more of a share the wealth guy.  Real fans invest a tremendous amount of physical and mental energy on their teams and I like to see that rewarded.  The numbers are rapidly dwindling in terms of fanbases that deserve a title more than Orioles fans.  I like to believe that at some point, we will get what we truly do deserve.....hopefully at the expense of a fanbase that has already been rewarded. 

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8 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

It was '83.  You couldn't go online and order 5,000 custom T-shirts to be delivered in a couple days.

true, we had vendors selling at every corner gas station, :) :) :)

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I'm not jealous, I'm happy for the Nats and their fans.  

The Nats are a well run, first rate organization, they are what the Orioles fancy themselves as, to a certain degree.  Angelos has no one to blame but himself for the way he's run this franchise into the ground over his ownership and the amount of backbreaking work it'll take for the new regime to become relevant again.  

I feel like all of this could have been prevented.  Maybe not the Nats moving in and taking up some of his market share, but the way he's sabotaged his team and the baseball people he's hired along the way.  And it's a shame because it's not like he was afraid to spend money in the beginning.  

I don't care what you think about the wine and cheese DC crowd, that's not what this is about.  

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31 minutes ago, atomic said:

Strasburg was able to  be a free agent long ago. He is making $38 million this season. Scherzer is making $42 million.  The Nationals were built through free agency.  Rendon was drafted 6th.  We will have a guy picked #1 overall and a guy picked #2 overall. Time to start improving the team or get a new owner/gm combo.

The Astro's pitchers were likewise acquired through trades or free agency.  

Strasburg is also able to be a free agent this year if he opts out.  He was one of the early adoptees of those clauses. 

And to say the Nationals and Astros were built through free agency is a terrible take.  They also made trades, which is the result from stockpiling talent while being so terrible, and developed their own talent.  It takes all of these approaches to make a successful time, but it results from having an established talent pipeline, which is what Mike Elias is trying to build.  

The main core of the Nationals run, from 2012 to now, were two former #1 overall picks- Harper and Strasburg.  Then you've got Rendon who was drafted sixth.  Erick Fedde was a first round pick.  Two first round picks (Giolito and Dunning) were sent to acquire Adam Eaton.  Ryan Zimmerman was the club's first, first rounder after the Expos. Juan Soto signed for $1.5m as an IFA, as did Victor Robles for $200k.  Trea Turner was acquired for Souza, who was a third round pick.  

As for the Astros, their history is well documented, but Bregman and Correa were all drafted at the top of the draft while they were tanking.  Verlander and Cole were acquired for prospects they had stockpiled.  They sent a great haul of prospects over to Arizona for Grienke.  Yuli Gurriel was a free agent from Cuba and given a hefty contract.  Jose Altuve was an undrafted free agent.  George Springer was a former first round pick.  Yordan Alvarez was an IFA acquired from the Dodgers.  Kyle Tucker was the fifth pick overall in his draft.

So as I said above, it's all about the talent pipeline.  Both teams also had low payrolls during the times they werent competing, and increased them once the core was ready to go.  This is why I've maintained that, when the Padres are finally ready to compete, their list of top 100 prospects is going to be thinned out via trades because that is what the Astros and Nationals, as well as the Cubs, have done before them.  Expect the Padres to be active trading some of those prospects this off-season to add to their current core of major leaguers.  So what the Orioles need to do now is to continue drafting at the top of the draft, continue banking funds for free agency, continue to build relationships internationally and keep adding technology so we are at the cutting edge of it.  Once that pipeline is secure, we could very well be mentioned in the same breath as the Astros, Cubs, Nationals, Yankees or Dodgers for sustained success from a talent pipeline. 

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7 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm not jealous, I'm happy for the Nats and their fans.  

The Nats are a well run, first rate organization, they are what the Orioles fancy themselves as, to a certain degree.  Angelos has no one to blame but himself for the way he's run this franchise into the ground over his ownership and the amount of backbreaking work it'll take for the new regime to become relevant again.  

I feel like all of this could have been prevented.  Maybe not the Nats moving in and taking up some of his market share, but the way he's sabotaged his team and the baseball people he's hired along the way.  And it's a shame because it's not like he was afraid to spend money in the beginning.  

I don't care what you think about the wine and cheese DC crowd, that's not what this is about.  

No question Peter hurt us so bad. The 14 years of losing and right in the middle is when the Nats were born.  

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6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm not jealous, I'm happy for the Nats and their fans.  

The Nats are a well run, first rate organization, they are what the Orioles fancy themselves as, to a certain degree.  Angelos has no one to blame but himself for the way he's run this franchise into the ground over his ownership and the amount of backbreaking work it'll take for the new regime to become relevant again.  

I feel like all of this could have been prevented.  Maybe not the Nats moving in and taking up some of his market share, but the way he's sabotaged his team and the baseball people he's hired along the way.  And it's a shame because it's not like he was afraid to spend money in the beginning.  

I don't care what you think about the wine and cheese DC crowd, that's not what this is about.  

I think the presence of the Nats is a net positive for the O's, because the presence of a well-run team 40 miles down 95 makes it harder to coast on revenue sharing payments.  The 2012-2016 Orioles weren't great, but I think part of the reason they competed was that the Angeloses knew they'd get stomped by a good Nats organization if they kept running things like 2007.  So they freed up some resources and control.

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1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think the presence of the Nats is a net positive for the O's, because the presence of a well-run team 40 miles down 95 makes it harder to coast on revenue sharing payments.  The 2012-2016 Orioles weren't great, but I think part of the reason they competed was that the Angeloses knew they'd get stomped by a good Nats organization if they kept running things like 2007.  So they freed up some resources and control.

I also think that the 2012-2016 Orioles did what they did because the Yankees weren't that great during those years.  In hindsight, that becomes much more apparent the further we get away from those teams.  Maybe the 2012 team was the only one that could be considered close to great.

I agree with your overall point, they can't coast on revenue sharing.  

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3 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

No question Peter hurt us so bad. The 14 years of losing and right in the middle is when the Nats were born.  

Maybe if Peter wasn't screwing the pooch for all those years and was able to field some great teams, the Nats wouldn't have encroached on his market.  I don't know how accurate that could be though, I think DC was always destined to be a 4 sport town sooner or later.

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1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Maybe if Peter wasn't screwing the pooch for all those years and was able to field some great teams, the Nats wouldn't have encroached on his market.  I don't know how accurate that could be though, I think DC was always destined to be a 4 sport town sooner or later.

I think they still get a team but if we would have remained competitive how many fans stay with us? I still think we have good support from the DC suburbs but now with basically 25 bad years and the Nats success you can undo whats been done. 

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13 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm not jealous, I'm happy for the Nats and their fans.  

The Nats are a well run, first rate organization, they are what the Orioles fancy themselves as, to a certain degree.  Angelos has no one to blame but himself for the way he's run this franchise into the ground over his ownership and the amount of backbreaking work it'll take for the new regime to become relevant again.  

I feel like all of this could have been prevented.  Maybe not the Nats moving in and taking up some of his market share, but the way he's sabotaged his team and the baseball people he's hired along the way.  And it's a shame because it's not like he was afraid to spend money in the beginning.  

I don't care what you think about the wine and cheese DC crowd, that's not what this is about.  

If Peter Angelos was more in-step with the commissioner's office at the time of relocation, I feel that they might have heeded his warnings about market share more seriously, or contemplated moving the team further into Virginia.  But because he's always been a curmudgeon towards them, it was no surprise that it happened the way that it did.  

That aside, I do agree it could've been prevented if ownership didn't meddle and supported the front office.  Hell, my Redskins are seeing the same thing happen but in a different sport, with different area teams  They were the big game in town, and everyone dropped what they were doing on Sundays.  The season ticket wait list at the start of the Snyder era was indeed a long wait.  However, he's run the team into the ground further than Peter ever could hope, and he's bleeding fans who are giving up on the team, in part because of how well the Capitals and Nationals are being run.  People would rather spend their money going to those games than they would Redskins, and I can't blame them.  Snyder's teams have been so bad recently that no one is playing ball for a new stadium, which would've been unthinkable even at the start of the Mike Shanahan timeframe.  

So yeah, I really hope that the son's have figured it out and are letting Elias do his thing.  It will take time and effort, and right now I like what I am seeing.  It seems he has full control over everything except big financial matters (which is something I would expect ownership to hold a share in) and everything I see is trending in the right direction for growth.  Again, it just takes time, and if anyone has tracked how the Astros, Cubs, Dodgers and Nationals have built themselves like this, would realize that we need to be patient.  

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6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I also think that the 2012-2016 Orioles did what they did because the Yankees weren't that great during those years.  In hindsight, that becomes much more apparent the further we get away from those teams.  Maybe the 2012 team was the only one that could be considered close to great.

I agree with your overall point, they can't coast on revenue sharing.  

I think of you look at the sport 2010-2015 or so was a pretty mediocre time in the game. The Giants were dominating in the postseason but they weren’t a dominant team. The Yankees started to fade. The Sox 13 title was sandwiched around last place teams. Bad teams like the Orioles, Royals and Pirates rebounded. 

Things will change again, they always do. That said the big market teams all got smart and built young powehouse teams and then you have the Astros. I know with “tanking” that impacts W/L records but these teams now are much better than that era. 

One more thing about 2012. I think many forget we had Britton and Arrieta on that team. If we only had a manger/PC combo that would have got the most out of them. 

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8 minutes ago, ThomasTomasz said:

If Peter Angelos was more in-step with the commissioner's office at the time of relocation, I feel that they might have heeded his warnings about market share more seriously, or contemplated moving the team further into Virginia.  But because he's always been a curmudgeon towards them, it was no surprise that it happened the way that it did.  

That aside, I do agree it could've been prevented if ownership didn't meddle and supported the front office.  Hell, my Redskins are seeing the same thing happen but in a different sport, with different area teams  They were the big game in town, and everyone dropped what they were doing on Sundays.  The season ticket wait list at the start of the Snyder era was indeed a long wait.  However, he's run the team into the ground further than Peter ever could hope, and he's bleeding fans who are giving up on the team, in part because of how well the Capitals and Nationals are being run.  People would rather spend their money going to those games than they would Redskins, and I can't blame them.  Snyder's teams have been so bad recently that no one is playing ball for a new stadium, which would've been unthinkable even at the start of the Mike Shanahan timeframe.  

So yeah, I really hope that the son's have figured it out and are letting Elias do his thing.  It will take time and effort, and right now I like what I am seeing.  It seems he has full control over everything except big financial matters (which is something I would expect ownership to hold a share in) and everything I see is trending in the right direction for growth.  Again, it just takes time, and if anyone has tracked how the Astros, Cubs, Dodgers and Nationals have built themselves like this, would realize that we need to be patient.  

Fellow Skins fan.  Angelos looks like a saint compared to Snyder.  It's getting to the point where I actually want to see the Redskins be as completely miserable as they've made me over these past few years because...well, they don't deserve anything good.  The players are fine, I believe they're generally a good group of guys...the front office and ownership can go kick rocks.  

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17 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Maybe if Peter wasn't screwing the pooch for all those years and was able to field some great teams, the Nats wouldn't have encroached on his market.  I don't know how accurate that could be though, I think DC was always destined to be a 4 sport town sooner or later.

Baltimore is only a 2 sport town.

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10 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Maybe if Peter wasn't screwing the pooch for all those years and was able to field some great teams, the Nats wouldn't have encroached on his market.  I don't know how accurate that could be though, I think DC was always destined to be a 4 sport town sooner or later.

Five sport, but yes.  Could you imagine Oakland keeping San Francisco from having a major sports team?  Or Providence blocking a team from coming to Boston?  Or if the PCL's Hollywood Stars successfully blocked the Dodgers from happening?  

Baseball's major flaw in the 1950s and 60s was allowing teams to move almost at will, instead of helping to fix problems and better managing expansion.  Or just negotiating a way for the PCL to go major.  Then we wouldn't have had all the displaced and disgruntled fanbases all over the place, and brand new, history-less teams in a dozen cities.  There's no reason Washington was without a team for 30 years besides poor management.

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