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Lamar Jackson is in the MVP discussion

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20 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/ravens-lamar-jackson-john-harbaugh-stunned?fbclid=IwAR2uBrd3hhO8bHzpKq2XTdGRZ48rxilGQ2xTSQpBi_b9G8SAUuPEFT1LCL4

I love how Lamar is focused on the now. As his doubters try everything they can to downplay how special he is (I believe I literally saw the words "He's a good player" that was followed up with charm, "He is not an elite game changer.") and continue their assault on him as he racks up numbers never seen by a QB 16 games into his pro career.

Whether he is the MVP or not, I care about as much as Lamar does. He keeps on winning and doing things that amaze us every week. He's a special, special, elite game changing player that the Ravens have never had on offense, particularly at QB.

If people want to downplay him, feel free, but you'll make less of a fool of yourself if you just admit you and many others were wrong about Lamar! 

I'm sorry I'm tentative to jump on the Lamar train like you did with the Josh Jackson train after the Howard and Syracuse games and if that makes me a hater, fine.  My point has been he hasn't played a good defense this year.  Of the ranking 32 defenses, only two were in top half, 1 was the Patriots who have quite literally had one of the easiest schedules in the NFL, as I stated prior, their first 8 games were jokes.  Not to mention they quite literally shut us down for two entire quarters.  The other are the Steelers who held Jackson to 160 yards passing and 60 rushing.  A game we won by a field goal in overtime.  And then the Chiefs and Browns who are bottom half and beat us.

If he looks this fantastic and confuses/confounds the 49ers and Rams, then I might join the MVP discussion.  And then to ignore our defense stepping it up, to where we have won games we might've lost in September or the Offensive Coordinator that has been trashed for revamping an entire offense to "suit" Lamar's skill set. 

I've learned too much over my years that we tend to overhype players, baseball, football, etc too soon.  I mean Kaepernick led his team to the Super Bowl and was irrelevant a year later.

Have I enjoyed winning? Yes.  Have I enjoyed watching him play? Yes.  I'm just not sure I'm sold on MVP of NFL, and if that makes me a hater and a fool, so be it.

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1 hour ago, jarman86 said:

I'm sorry I'm tentative to jump on the Lamar train like you did with the Josh Jackson train after the Howard and Syracuse games and if that makes me a hater, fine.  My point has been he hasn't played a good defense this year.  Of the ranking 32 defenses, only two were in top half, 1 was the Patriots who have quite literally had one of the easiest schedules in the NFL, as I stated prior, their first 8 games were jokes.  Not to mention they quite literally shut us down for two entire quarters.  The other are the Steelers who held Jackson to 160 yards passing and 60 rushing.  A game we won by a field goal in overtime.  And then the Chiefs and Browns who are bottom half and beat us.

 

It's hard to read this and not think you are biased against Jackson. You say Jackson hasn't faced  a good defense then dismiss the fact that he faced the #1 defense (NE) and #10 defense (Pittsburgh). I'll give you that the Patriots defense didn't face much leading up to that game but to say that the #1 ranked defense after 10 weeks of the season isn't a good defense is just silly. And if we want to look at the schedules than the Steelers defense should rank much higher. They gave up 33 the NE week 1 and 28 the SEA week 2 and 24 to SF week 3, then they added M. Fitzpatrick and have been much better since that trade. We heard the same argument again Lamar last season, well it's been 16 games now, it's kind've hard to make the argument that he's just had an easy schedule. 

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I like the stat where they showed that only 2 QBs in the history of the sport have had two games in the same season with perfect 158.3 passer ratings.   Lamar and Big Ben.

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I hate this argument:  "But he hasnt played any good defenses."

1.  He has, NE and Pit.

2. I can guareentee that every MVP in the history of the league played bad defenses.  I might even argue that in the majority of instances the difference between the guy who won and the guy who finished second was ease of schedule.  The fact is, every QB, every team plays bad defenses, that is a part of the standard variation of a 16 game schedule.

Somethings are also true...

Not every good QB handles bad defenses.  In fact, even great QBs have bad games against terrible defenses (ahem Drew Brees v. Atlana last week).  The sign of a great QB is the ability to bury bad defenses, be better than average against average defenses and even shine against great defenses.

Lamar has done all these things including burying Miami and Cincinnati.  His command of the offense that put both of those teams out of the game by the end of the first quarter allowed the ravens to play their game, rest their players, and keep something in the tank for tougher games down the road.  

If a player got nicked up during the game (Pierce) that's okay, you can come out and rest it, we dont need you to win this game.  

That is a sign of an MVP to me.  Making the players and team around you better by doing what you are supposed to do, yes, even against the worst teams.

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On 11/13/2019 at 3:34 PM, Brian88 said:

It's hard to read this and not think you are biased against Jackson. You say Jackson hasn't faced  a good defense then dismiss the fact that he faced the #1 defense (NE) and #10 defense (Pittsburgh). I'll give you that the Patriots defense didn't face much leading up to that game but to say that the #1 ranked defense after 10 weeks of the season isn't a good defense is just silly. And if we want to look at the schedules than the Steelers defense should rank much higher. They gave up 33 the NE week 1 and 28 the SEA week 2 and 24 to SF week 3, then they added M. Fitzpatrick and have been much better since that trade. We heard the same argument again Lamar last season, well it's been 16 games now, it's kind've hard to make the argument that he's just had an easy schedule. 

I misspoke when I said they haven't played a good defense and I will admit that.  I think it is backed up that I misspoke by the fact I actually pointed out that they were in the top half.  I pointed out that the Patriots defense is overrated in part because of the fluff schedule they have and in part because they are...the Patriots.  Steelers, are not what they were.  I heard that over and over the week leading up to that game.  And its true.  This is not a Steel Curtain defense.  Both are good defenses but not great.  

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1 hour ago, Camden_yardbird said:

I hate this argument:  "But he hasnt played any good defenses."

1.  He has, NE and Pit.

2. I can guareentee that every MVP in the history of the league played bad defenses.  I might even argue that in the majority of instances the difference between the guy who won and the guy who finished second was ease of schedule.  The fact is, every QB, every team plays bad defenses, that is a part of the standard variation of a 16 game schedule.

Somethings are also true...

Not every good QB handles bad defenses.  In fact, even great QBs have bad games against terrible defenses (ahem Drew Brees v. Atlana last week).  The sign of a great QB is the ability to bury bad defenses, be better than average against average defenses and even shine against great defenses.

Lamar has done all these things including burying Miami and Cincinnati.  His command of the offense that put both of those teams out of the game by the end of the first quarter allowed the ravens to play their game, rest their players, and keep something in the tank for tougher games down the road.  

If a player got nicked up during the game (Pierce) that's okay, you can come out and rest it, we dont need you to win this game.  

That is a sign of an MVP to me.  Making the players and team around you better by doing what you are supposed to do, yes, even against the worst teams.

1.) and his QBR against Pittsburgh was in the 50s I believe and we barely won that game.

2.) true, Tom Brady has had essentially 6 Ws every year since 2001 in his division.

I am going to say this one more time, I like him, I like watching him play, I think he has been one of the reasons we are 7-2 right now.  I just don't see MVP of the NFL or AFC.  And to throw up perfect passer ratings for two games against two of the worst NFL defenses where he threw 20 passes max and at less than 10 yards each attempt I believe (something we got upset at Flacco for),  or point to the one game against a good defense that he's done well and claim MVP seems way premature for me.  Any pass over 10 yards, his completion percentage drops to 50%.  It is evident that no one is changing my mind in this thread and I'm not changing theirs, so I am done with this discussion.  

And your last sentence is leader, not MVP.  Which, I would agree with, he is a leader.  

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On 11/15/2019 at 10:00 AM, backwardsk said:

Jackson, Wilson, who else?  The RB in Minnesota?  Brady?  Who else should be in the discussion?

Wilson.  Shares the lead in TDs with Lamar.

Michael Thomas.  What this guy is doing over the last two years, catching over 80% of passes, is truly remarkable.

Dalvin Cook.  Dominating RB could get there as the best back in the league this year, but up 2000 APY and 15 TDs.  For this reason I would say he knocks out CMC and Henry.  But he also has a very good QB in the backfield who is currently leading the league in passer rating.

Out:

Missed Games (Mahomes, Brees).  Can't win if you are not playing 16. 

Missed Playoffs (McCaffrey, Henry) Both these guys have great cases as they are basically the offense for their teams. 

Henry is having a coming out party and may end up with 15 TDs and around 1300-1500 yards rushing.  Lowest chances on this list but the dude does like to ball out at the end of the year.

CMC is the offense in Carolina and will put up 2000 all purpose yards.  Carolina plays atlanta (whobisnt good but beat them), Seattle, Indy and New Orleans.  I just dont see them making it.

The usual suspects (Brady, Rodgers)

Niether of these guys are having great years.  They just aren't.   Niether will compete for the TD or Yards crown and while they may both lock up byes for their teams in the first round neither is the main reason on their team why that is happening.

I am not going to give Lamar the MVP.  He has to finish strong and healthy.  His 8% TD rate is by all accounts unsustainable (league average is 4.5%), but like a lot of things Lamar is rewriting the script.  He will likely finish top 10 in rushing (he currently sits 9th with a maybe benched Chris Carson ahead of him).

By the way, if you had bet Lamar as MVP at the beginning of the year it was at 50 to 1 odds.

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I wonder if the people who 'didn't see it' when Jackson was in the discussion are seeing it now that most publications are saying Jackson is the current front runner.   They probably want to bicker about that too.  Lamar might win it or not depending on how he and the other players in the mix finish.  Personally I could care less.  I am just enjoying this unprecedented ride and hope to see the Ravens get a first round bye. Number one seed would be nice, but I just don't see New England losing again.  

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Lamar is done for the season and I think he has wrapped up the MVP.

Brees or Mahomes could have given him a run but missed time with injuries.

His in season competition at QB was Wilson who just lost to arizona and may not win his division.

The RB possibilities got injured or were on terrible teams.  Henry, Cook, McCaffrey.

The wide reciever option is Michael Thomas who honestly is having one of the best WR seasons ever.  But he is a WR.

There are no defensive possibilities.

Right now my ballot is:

Lamar Jackson

....

Michael Thomas, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, 

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