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Tony-OH

Middle Infield, Addison Russell and the Redemption Song

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4 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't understand this line of thinking at all.. If you agree with the cold heartless approach of getting rid of good players in their prime to support their "strategic vision" then you need to get behind them acquiring anyone who can help further that strategic vision.

Addison Russel is a 26-year old SS with an upside. If he can rebuild his swing and hit well with the Orioles, he has value to this team in either the future or through potential trade flip.

Also, I don't see how Russell would be a nightmare PR move. Are their Orioles fans out there that are not going to support the team if he's acquired? Are you against people getting second chances when their actions and behaviors all indicate that he's "rehabilitated". If Hyde is ok with the move, does that make it easier for you to swallow? 

I'm sorry Tony, but I respectfully disagree. Not overpaying a player coming off a career year and signing a domestic abuser aren't even close to being the same thing. And regardless of whether or not you think it would be a PR nightmare it's simply not the right thing to do. Some things are bigger than baseball. 

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Russell's major league numbers aren't great. ~.700 OPS, with slightly above average defense. His minor league numbers are better, for sure. 

Does he still profile (physically) as a breakout candidate or has that ship sailed?

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10 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

The O's will lose more fans by signing Russell than they did by letting some guy named Villar go. Most fans weren't even paying attention while Villar was having a good year last year. They'd pay attention if the O's signed a domestic abuser.

That's not my opinion on whether they should, it's just my opinion that they would.

I was joking.

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11 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

Russell's major league numbers aren't great. ~.700 OPS, with slightly above average defense. His minor league numbers are better, for sure. 

Does he still profile (physically) as a breakout candidate or has that ship sailed?

He still has the raw talent and will only be 26 next year, but considering that he was sent to the minors this year to familiarize himself with the team's signs, there are additional red flags beyond his off-field issues.

He would need to rededicate himself to baseball, whether he is willing or able to do that remains to be seen.

He would be considered an ideal buy-low candidate for a team that could convince him to buy in to rededicating himself. I don't think a team whose goal it is to lose 100+ games and trade him if he gets better is the team most likely to do that, even leaving aside the off-field issues.

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7 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

He still has the raw talent and will only be 26 next year, but considering that he was sent to the minors this year to familiarize himself with the team's signs, there are additional red flags beyond his off-field issues.

He would need to rededicate himself to baseball, whether he is willing or able to do that remains to be seen.

He would be considered an ideal buy-low candidate for a team that could convince him to buy in to rededicating himself. I don't think a team whose goal it is to lose 100+ games and trade him if he gets better is the team most likely to do that, even leaving aside the off-field issues.

Players are motivated by what?  Easy  answer.  Getting a chance to perform and make as much money as possible.  

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2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Players are motivated by what?  Easy  answer.  Getting a chance to perform and make as much money as possible.  

So why was he seemingly so unmotivated the last two years?

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3 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

So why was he seemingly so unmotivated the last two years?

You said he wouldn't be motivated on a losing team. Now you say he wasn't motivated on a contender.  Maybe nothing will do the trick.  But getting a chance to be a full time starting SS on a loser might be his best opportunity to improve his future and he and his agent may have to realize that.

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I really don't think a sign and flip plan makes sense. There's just not enough time, unless he's on a 2 year deal.

If we signed him, I'd rather be open minded that he might be our SS of the mid-future (e.g., into a competitive window). It might not work out, but I think that's the way a move like this would be more likely to pay off the PR hit the team would take in the short term.

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1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Nothing is going to satisfy your hunger and lust for his demise so there really is nothing more to discuss. I've given you the quotes from him and the people in his management about him. You can choose to continue to vilify him all you want.

I will choose to look at him a flawwed human like the rest of us who made a mistake and is making the corrective actions to become a better person. I will root for his success on his journey and if that journey takes him to the Orioles, I too shall root for him here.

OK, no one is saying or thinking this. I think pretty much everyone here believes in people having second, third, or fourth chances. Everyone hopes he can turn his life around.

But, Russell's ex-wife has went on record. Plenty of details about him drunkenly ripping their baby out of her arms, slamming her into concrete, and other abuse. If the O's were to sign him, I think I'd personally pass on supporting the team. It wouldn't sit right with me. I don't really look to Brandon Hyde's thoughts on the matter to be my moral compass. But, you're certainly entitled to do what sits right with you too.

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12 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

I really don't think a sign and flip plan makes sense. There's just not enough time, unless he's on a 2 year deal.

He doesn't have 5 years of service time, so he would be arbitration eligible after 2020. So whoever signs him will control him for two years.

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5 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't understand this line of thinking at all.. If you agree with the cold heartless approach of getting rid of good players in their prime to support their "strategic vision" then you need to get behind them acquiring anyone who can help further that strategic vision.

Addison Russel is a 26-year old SS with an upside. If he can rebuild his swing and hit well with the Orioles, he has value to this team in either the future or through potential trade flip.

Also, I don't see how Russell would be a nightmare PR move. Are their Orioles fans out there that are not going to support the team if he's acquired? Are you against people getting second chances when their actions and behaviors all indicate that he's "rehabilitated". If Hyde is ok with the move, does that make it easier for you to swallow? 

I don't think that cutting loose a player who you think is too expensive is inconsistent with the philosophy that you should avoid players with serious behavioral or moral problems.

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15 minutes ago, theocean said:

OK, no one is saying or thinking this. I think pretty much everyone here believes in people having second, third, or fourth chances. Everyone hopes he can turn his life around.

But, Russell's ex-wife has went on record. Plenty of details about him drunkenly ripping their baby out of her arms, slamming her into concrete, and other abuse. If the O's were to sign him, I think I'd personally pass on supporting the team. It wouldn't sit right with me. I don't really look to Brandon Hyde's thoughts on the matter to be my moral compass. But, you're certainly entitled to do what sits right with you too.

"The interview was published less than 24 hours after a previous girlfriend – the mother of Russell’s daughter – alleged in a social media post years-old demeaning conversations and attempts to avoid child support. None of that is covered under baseball’s policies governing off-field behavior and some of it is disputed"

"Russell didn't regularly pay child support and the one time he did (partially), Russell have her $600 in dollar bills and quarters."

 

So the mother of his first child had to trouble getting paid in child support and then he pays her $600 in quarters and 1 dollar bills???

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2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Huh? See how easy it is to take someone's post and make it sound like those were his words. Here's his actual words,

“I’m accountable for my past actions. I am not proud of the person I was.”

“Without getting into details or specifics, I just want to own that what I did was wrong and inexcusable,” Addison said at the time. “And I’m sorry. Sorry for the hurt and pain I put Melisa through.”

Well, neither you or weams posted a link, so that would be helpful. 

I specifically said I didn't follow Russell.  I'm suggesting that statements like what weams posted are damning and lacking remorse and I meant on a more general domestic abuse level.  I can see how it wasn't worded that way. 

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/12/19/addison-russell-worse-than-you-thought/

This is what I read and personally I'm not a fan.  Could he have improved?  Maybe.  I think there would need to be more follow up to a press conference as mentioned in this article.  He admitted he screwed up, but most people do after suspension on some level (not all). 

I think where you get different answers is HOW does he prove it.  That will definitely get a wide range of "requirements".  He certainly has hurt his career on some level from the initial behavior.  Teams will need to now go through an evaluation to determine if they believe he has truly improved his behavior.  The level to gauge this is likely outside the scope of anything we'd see in a news article and again why teams would have to look into things more deeply.

edit:  one more now, since I am looking into it more...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2797017-addison-russell-says-domestic-violence-allegations-completely-false

He denied it at first, suggesting it was all false.  To me that adds to the remorseful talk, only after being busted.  We are all human and have flaws.  I can agree with that.  Maybe if we sign him, I'll read more and hope I see things that point to real change.  If he doesn't sign here, then I'll be plenty happy rooting for the guys we do have.

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1 hour ago, LookinUp said:

Russell's major league numbers aren't great. ~.700 OPS, with slightly above average defense. His minor league numbers are better, for sure. 

Does he still profile (physically) as a breakout candidate or has that ship sailed?

And this seems to have gotten lost to some extent - understandably - in the discussion.  The cold hard question is - Does his ability justify taking a chance on him - realizing there will be bad PR in giving him a chance - regardless of whether or not the bad PR is warranted.  So far, he's been no more than a mediocre player.  

I'll be brutally honest - If I'm running a team, I'd be much more willing to give him a chance if he actually played well.  

  

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3 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

I'll be brutally honest - If I'm running a team, I'd be much more willing to give him a chance if he actually played well.  

There’s no question that the more talented a player is, the more rope he’ll get with off-the-field stuff.    That’s cold reality.    There’s a limit to what anyone can be excused for, but the limit varies according to talent.    That’s not necessarily how it should be, but that’s how it is.   

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