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Iglesias signs with O's

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9 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Doesn't that describe hundreds or even thousands of glove-first players throughout baseball history?  That's Mike Bordick or Rich Dauer.  Jerry Adair or Cesar Izturis.  It's Corey Patterson or Billy Gardner.

Anyway, he's not that bad of a hitter for a shortstop.  Since he got established in 2013 there are 111 players who've played 350+ games at short.  He's 75th of the 111 in OPS+.  JJ Hardy had a 82 OPS+ the last five years of his career, Iglesias has an 86.  Ryan Flaherty has a career mark of 72. 

Good points but Cinncy plays in a homer friendly ballpark. Not that Camden isn’t. The AL East is a much tougher division than the NL Central.

I hope Hyde doesn’t have Iglesias hitting at the top of the lineup.  Somewhere between 7-9 seems ideal.  

 

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12 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Doesn't that describe hundreds or even thousands of glove-first players throughout baseball history?  That's Mike Bordick or Rich Dauer.  Jerry Adair or Cesar Izturis.  It's Corey Patterson or Billy Gardner.

Anyway, he's not that bad of a hitter for a shortstop.  Since he got established in 2013 there are 111 players who've played 350+ games at short.  He's 75th of the 111 in OPS+.  JJ Hardy had a 82 OPS+ the last five years of his career, Iglesias has an 86.  Ryan Flaherty has a career mark of 72. 

In the past, maybe, but in this era I feel like the bar is much higher for a SS' offensive numbers. I think Iglesias is a bit of dying breed with a much smaller margin for error. Just the fact that the Braves chose to trade someone like Andrelton Simmons in 2015/16 when he was arguably the best defensive SS in the game at the time speaks volumes to me. That would have never happened 20 years ago. 

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7 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

In the past, maybe, but in this era I feel like the bar is much higher for a SS' offensive numbers. I think Iglesias is a bit of dying breed with a much smaller margin for error. Just the fact that the Braves chose to trade someone like Andrelton Simmons in 2015/16 when he was arguably the best defensive SS in the game at the time speaks volumes to me. That would have never happened 20 years ago. 

Funny, I feel like I’ve been hearing this for at least 35 years, when Cal was in his prime.   

Like I said, I don’t think OBP is Iglesias’ big offensive problem.    Lack of power is the bigger issue.    Last year the average SS hit .264/.323/.439.     Iglesias hit .288/.318/.407.    But, he’s better than average defensively so as an overall package he’s decent.    Below average for a starter, but good enough to start for some teams and a cheap upgrade for us.  
 

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11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Funny, I feel like I’ve been hearing this for at least 35 years, when Cal was in his prime.   

Like I said, I don’t think OBP is Iglesias’ big offensive problem.    Lack of power is the bigger issue.    Last year the average SS hit .264/.323/.439.     Iglesias hit .288/.318/.407.    But, he’s better than average defensively so as an overall package he’s decent.    Below average for a starter, but good enough to start for some teams and a cheap upgrade for us.  
 

Really? You don't see the evolution? Just look at the WAR of the top 10 last season and compare it to 2009 and 2000. Again, I'm not knocking the Iglesias signing (it's fine for us), but the offensive bar is definitely higher these days. 

MLB Top 10 SS' 2019

RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS WAR
1 Marcus Semien OAK 657 123 187 43 7 33 92 10 8 87 102 .285 .369 .522 .892 8.1
2 Trevor Story COL 588 111 173 38 5 35 85 23 8 58 174 .294 .363 .554 .917 6.4
3 Jorge Polanco MIN 631 107 186 40 7 22 79 4 3 60 116 .295 .356 .485 .841 5.7
4 Xander Bogaerts BOS 614 110 190 52 0 33 117 4 2 76 122 .309 .384 .555 .939 5.2
5 Javier Baez CHC 531 89 149 38 4 29 85 11 7 28 156 .281 .316 .531 .847 4.8
6 Francisco Lindor CLE 598 101 170 40 2 32 74 22 5 46 98 .284 .335 .518 .854 4.7
7 Nick Ahmed ARI 556 79 141 33 6 19 82 8 2 52 113 .254 .316 .437 .753 4.5
8 Fernando Tatis Jr. SD 334 61 106 13 6 22 53 16 6 30 110 .317 .379 .590 .969 4.2
9 Willy Adames TB 531 69 135 25 1 20 52 4 2 46 153 .254 .317 .418 .735 4.2
10 Paul DeJong STL 583 97 136 31 1 30 78 9 5 62 149 .233 .318 .444 .762 4.


MLB Top 10 SS' 2009

RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS WAR
1 Hanley Ramirez FLA 576 101 197 42 1 24 106 27 8 61 101 .342 .410 .543 .954 7.1
2 Derek Jeter NYY 634 107 212 27 1 18 66 30 5 72 90 .334 .406 .465 .871 6.4
3 Troy Tulowitzki COL 543 101 161 25 9 32 92 20 11 73 112 .297 .377 .552 .930 6.3
4 Brendan Ryan STL 390 55 114 19 7 3 37 14 7 24 56 .292 .340 .400 .740 4.3
5 Jack Wilson SEA/PIT 373 37 95 23 1 5 39 3 1 21 48 .255 .292 .362 .654 3.4
6 Elvis Andrus TEX 480 72 128 17 8 6 40 33 6 40 77 .267 .329 .373 .702 3.3
7 Erick Aybar LAA 504 70 157 23 9 5 58 14 7 30 54 .312 .353 .423 .776 3.2
8 Stephen Drew ARI 533 71 139 29 12 12 65 5 1 49 87 .261 .320 .428 .748 2.7
9 Alexei Ramirez CWS 542 71 150 14 1 15 68 14 5 49 66 .277 .333 .389 .723 2.1
10 Clint Barmes COL 550 69 135 32 3 23 76 12 10 31 121 .245 .294 .440 .734 2.0

 

MLB Top 10 SS's 2000

 

K PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS WAR
1 Derek Jeter NYY 593 119 201 31 4 15 73 22 4 68 99 .339 .416 .481 .896 4.4
2 Mike Bordick BAL/NYM 583 88 166 30 1 20 80 9 6 49 99 .285 .341 .443 .783 2.5
3 Barry Larkin CIN 396 71 124 26 5 11 41 14 6 48 31 .313 .389 .487 .876 2.4
4 Edgar Renteria STL 562 94 156 32 1 16 76 21 13 63 77 .278 .346 .423 .770 1.9
5 Felix Martinez TB 299 42 64 11 4 2 17 9 3 32 68 .214 .305 .298 .603 1.7
6 Pokey Reese CIN 518 76 132 20 6 12 46 29 3 45 86 .255 .319 .386 .705 1.6
7 Walt Weiss ATL 192 29 50 6 2 0 18 1 1 26 32 .260 .353 .313 .665 1.2
8 Ramon Martinez SF 189 30 57 13 2 6 25 3 2 15 22 .302 .354 .487 .841 1.1
9 Ozzie Guillen TB 107 22 26 4 0 2 12 1 0 6 7 .243 .283 .336 .620 1.0
10 Neifi Perez COL 651 92 187 39 11 10 71 3 6 30 63 .287 .314 .427 .741 0.9
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37 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

In the past, maybe, but in this era I feel like the bar is much higher for a SS' offensive numbers. I think Iglesias is a bit of dying breed with a much smaller margin for error. Just the fact that the Braves chose to trade someone like Andrelton Simmons in 2015/16 when he was arguably the best defensive SS in the game at the time speaks volumes to me. That would have never happened 20 years ago. 

 

20 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Funny, I feel like I’ve been hearing this for at least 35 years, when Cal was in his prime.   

I’ve looked into this and have to concede that SS has been a continuously improving position offensively over the last 40 years.

1979: 79 OPS+
1989: 85 OPS+
1999: 89 OPS+
2009: 93 OPS+
2019: 103 OPS+

Note: these figures are for all MLB.    AL figures generally would be lower because the pitchers don’t bat and drag down the average to which SS is compared.

Edit: This post was simultaneous with your most recent post, more or less making the same point.    I’d only add that the evolution has been going on for at least 40 years, though arguably accelerated over the last decade.   
 

 

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12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Funny, I feel like I’ve been hearing this for at least 35 years, when Cal was in his prime.   

Like I said, I don’t think OBP is Iglesias’ big offensive problem.    Lack of power is the bigger issue.    Last year the average SS hit .264/.323/.439.     Iglesias hit .288/.318/.407.    But, he’s better than average defensively so as an overall package he’s decent.    Below average for a starter, but good enough to start for some teams and a cheap upgrade for us.  
 

I don't know why we are trying to compare SS Iglesias to SS on contending teams.   The O's are not contenders.

Elias saw a way to improve the O's defense to help the young pitchers who will be coming to the O's in the next two years and took that path.    That decision is to be applauded.

If we want to talk offense then let's talk about Hays, Mancini, Mountcastle, Santander and Nunez. 

Even the 1983 O's World Series Champs had the "three stooges"  -  Dauer, Dempsey and Cruz - that were good defense/marginal hitting players.     Elias is trying to build a team here.  Not  a bunch of androids that all have the same skills.

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What I like is this makes the lineup pretty watchable on a nightly basis. It removes one "auto-out" in Martin (I still love ya Richie) and leaves essentially just one in Davis, who at some point in the season will cease to play every day (again). 

I could see a lineup like this, give or take:

Hays - CF
Alberto - 2B
Mancini - RF
Nunez - DH
Santander - LF
Davis - 1B
Iglesias - SS
Ruiz - 3B
Severino - C

Not that this lineup won't struggle a ton - it will. But it's not hideous. Alberto, Iglesias, and Ruiz all make decent contact even though they lack power/on-base ability. And there's a good amount of pop in there - there exists the possibility of Mancini, Santander, and Nunez all popping 30 if things break right. 

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13 hours ago, Mr. Chewbacca Jr. said:

Shortstop is pretty loaded right now. In another era, Iglesias would probably be much more valued. I'd guess-timate that 20 out of 30 teams have shortstops they're really happy with right now. 

Since 2013 (the year you mentioned), the league has seen the arrival of Francisco Lindor, Javier Baez, Gleyber Torres, Marcus Semien, Trevor Story,  Fernando Tatis Jr, Jorge Polanco, Willy Adames, Paul DeJong, Corey Seager, Trea Turner, Tim Anderson.

That's a boatload of talent; we're lucky to get to witness so many great shortstops at one time.

I think I'm still stuck in a bygone era when I was following more closely (2012-2014). Was really surprised to see Iglesias be had so cheaply, but your post gives context to that. 

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1 minute ago, Bubble Buddy said:

I think I'm still stuck in a bygone era when I was following more closely (2012-2014). Was really surprised to see Iglesias be had so cheaply, but your post gives context to that. 

I dont care much for the 4 different teams and used to be a clubhouse issue.

But, all reports, he grew up and wasnt a problem at his last stop.

We shall see.

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2 minutes ago, Bubble Buddy said:

I think I'm still stuck in a bygone era when I was following more closely (2012-2014). Was really surprised to see Iglesias be had so cheaply, but your post gives context to that. 

I remember in the post-Tejada years when the Orioles simply could not find a SS. There just weren't any! They tried guys Luis Hernandez, Freddie Bynum, Cesar Izturis (certainly the most competent of this group), Brandon Fahey (!!), Alex Cintron, etc. 

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With generous rounding you can give 25 teams more than 2.5 wins at SS going into the year - everyone but BAL/Iglesias, DET/Goodrum, CIN/Galvis, PIT/Newman and SF/Crawford.

Wander Franco, Gavin Lux, Carter Kieboom, Royce Lewis and Bobby Witt aren't among those Top 25 incumbents - that's maybe the world's best 30 right now.

Lindor/Baez/Correa/Story/Seager sit there as tantalizing possibilities 2 years out if we're ready for them - especially if pass on (or are not able to select) Austin Martin this June.  Infield fairly conspicuously the position group looking shakiest on the next good team today.

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33 minutes ago, OrioleDog said:

With generous rounding you can give 25 teams more than 2.5 wins at SS going into the year - everyone but BAL/Iglesias, DET/Goodrum, CIN/Galvis, PIT/Newman and SF/Crawford.

Wander Franco, Gavin Lux, Carter Kieboom, Royce Lewis and Bobby Witt aren't among those Top 25 incumbents - that's maybe the world's best 30 right now.

Lindor/Baez/Correa/Story/Seager sit there as tantalizing possibilities 2 years out if we're ready for them - especially if pass on (or are not able to select) Austin Martin this June.  Infield fairly conspicuously the position group looking shakiest on the next good team today.

I'm not sure any of the SS' are going to age well. Maybe Lindor. The others though...

Baez - The poor plate discipline's going to catch up to him at some point. 

Correa - Can't stay healthy.

Story - Coor's Field inflated numbers.

Seager - Teetering on a bust if he doesn't produce this season. 

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2 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I'm not sure any of the SS' are going to age well. Maybe Lindor. The others though...

Baez - The poor plate discipline's going to catch up to him at some point. 

Correa - Can't stay healthy.

Story - Coor's Field inflated numbers.

Seager - Teetering on a bust if he doesn't produce this season.

What?    Sure you have the right Seager?

Story had a 118 OPS+, which is park-adjusted.

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4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

What?    Sure you have the right Seager?

Story had a 118 OPS+, which is park-adjusted.

Agreed. He did better last season then I remembered. 

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2 hours ago, Frobby said:

 

I’ve looked into this and have to concede that SS has been a continuously improving position offensively over the last 40 years.

1979: 79 OPS+
1989: 85 OPS+
1999: 89 OPS+
2009: 93 OPS+
2019: 103 OPS+

Note: these figures are for all MLB.    AL figures generally would be lower because the pitchers don’t bat and drag down the average to which SS is compared.

Edit: This post was simultaneous with your most recent post, more or less making the same point.    I’d only add that the evolution has been going on for at least 40 years, though arguably accelerated over the last decade.   
 

 

Sure, the evolution has been going on for some time: from Cal... to the big three of Jeter, A Rod, and Nomar... to now.

The big difference, from even ten years ago, is the amazing depth at the shortstop position. It's never been so deep with such excellent players. Some teams even have multiple shortstops - but have had to push them to other positions: Bregman, Torres, Machado.

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