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Uli2001

Video of Altuve

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I don't buy any of this - I'm pretty sure it would've come up in the investigation if there were anything to it - but I admit it'd be pretty darned entertaining if it turns out to be true.

Guess I'm subconsciously rooting for mass chaos.

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2 minutes ago, Win Column said:

I don't buy any of this - I'm pretty sure it would've come up in the investigation if there were anything to it - but I admit it'd be pretty darned entertaining if it turns out to be true.

Guess I'm subconsciously rooting for mass chaos.

They said it came up. Just couldn’t prove it. 

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More and more keeps coming out, and as it does, I'm re-evaluating my initial "meh" reaction to the whole thing.  As I said in another thread, stealing signs and gamesmanship have been part of the game for decades.  But this takes it to a whole other level. I still struggle a bit with where the line is exactly, but this is clearly over it.

I think Manfred needs to use this "new" evidence to punish Altuve, Beltran, and any others that there may be evidence of wearing an electronic device.  Beltran is obviously retired, but he should get a punishment similar to Hinch, IMO.  Altuve and other active players, I dunno.  80 games?  An entire season?  I'm not sure.

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13 hours ago, joelala said:

Who’s gonna be our new GM? This is getting uglier and uglier by the hour. 

Not sure where you're getting this.  I've seen zero info implicating Elias in any way.

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The more I find out about this story, the more I hope they name the players, that cheated even if they don't suspend them. Someone like Altuve will probably be on the HOF ballot someday and I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be blacklisted just like PED/steroid folks. Yes, it might be hard to differentiate between the players who were/weren't taking advantage of the trash can banging, but if they made the conscious decision to wear a buzzer...

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6 hours ago, forphase1 said:

While this may be true,  for many of us our record next season really isn't that important.   The focus should be a couple of years down the road.   If they lose their job and someone else comes in with a different plan/style/methodology, it could put us even more behind.   I think they are building it the right way and hope neither is implicated in any way.   

I don't think it puts us more behind.  We are we we are.  

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1 hour ago, Win Column said:

I don't buy any of this - I'm pretty sure it would've come up in the investigation if there were anything to it - but I admit it'd be pretty darned entertaining if it turns out to be true.

Guess I'm subconsciously rooting for mass chaos.

If nothing comes of this it's because MLB sweeps it under the rug, not because nothing was going on.

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I really haven't changed my opinion that the punishment is a bit harsh because I don't believe MLB has done a sufficient job of investigating other organizations.  There are rumors out about camera based cheating on the Dodgers and NYY besides the BoSox and the Astros.  I have seen the Jays mentioned as cheaters in addition to the Os suspicions of the Jays.  

I feel bad for the Rays and the Indians.  IMO, the vocal players on these teams hint shows the disgust on how things went down (the other team cheated and by implication their team didn't).  

If the Astros were the only team doing this, then I would change my mind that the penalty wasn't harsh enough and that some players should be fined, suspended or thrown out of the game.  Would love to see the players' union defend the cheaters while also representing a majority of players super-pissed at the cheaters.

I posted earlier.  The owner, GM and manager of every MLB team should have to sign a statement saying there was no camera/technology based cheating in their organization for the past five seasons.  Penalties ought to be severe for anyone signing that paper who turns out to be a liar.  

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https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28498781/mlb-no-evidence-astros-used-wearable-devices-aid-sign-stealing

Quote

On Wednesday, the matter of Astros players wearing electronic devices began with tweets stating that Jose Altuve and Alex Bregman "wore devices that buzzed" on the inside of their right shoulders, and that the devices were controlled by a video coordinator who presumably decoded signs by opposing catchers and relayed them to the batters.

Cincinnati Reds pitcher Trevor Bauer reacted Thursday, tweeting, "I've heard this from multiple parties too, for what it's worth..."

The Twitter account that first brought light to the issue appears to have been disabled.

The account also referenced Altuve's walk-off home run off New York Yankees closer Aroldis Chapman in Game 6 of the 2019 American League Championship Series, which put the Astros in the World Series.

As he approaches home plate after his pennant-clinching homer, Altuve clearly and demonstrably tells his awaiting teammates not to yank off his jersey. When asked why during an on-field interview with Fox Sports, Altuve laughs and says, "I don't know. I'm too shy. Last time they did that, I got in trouble with my wife."

In response to speculation that he did not want his jersey removed because he was wearing an electronic device, Altuve released a statement through his agent, Scott Boras.

 

Houston teammates mob Jose Altuve as he heads to home plate after hitting the winning homer against Yankees closer Aroldis Chapman, clinching the Astros' berth in the 2019 World Series. Tyler Smith/EPA

"I have never worn an electronic device in my performance as a major league player," the statement, which was reported by the New York Post, read.

According to Manfred's report, the Astros used two illegal technological methods to steal signs throughout the 2017 season and part of the 2018 season -- relaying information to runners on second base after decoding signs from the video replay room; and using a live feed from a center-field camera and then banging on a trash can to signal certain pitches.

 

The report made no mention of wearable devices and said "the investigation revealed no violations of the policy by the Astros in the 2019 season or 2019 Postseason."

"Other than described above," the statement read, "the investigation did not reveal any other scheme or method utilized by the Astros to decode an opposing Club's signs from 2016 to the present."

 

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And, IMO, this is not the worst thing since the Black Sox Scandal.  Let's get ahold of ourselves here.  

Two things:

  1. Systematic agreement between owners not to let black people play major league baseball
  2. Collusion between the owners in the mid 80s to keep salaries down amongst free agents

The color barrier gets talked about because people always throw up their hands and say it's terrible that Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell and others never got to play in the major leagues.  And it is terrible.  Way worse than banging on a trashcan to let a batter know that a curveball is coming.  And way worse than anything Pete Rose did, way worse than anything the Black Sox did.  Those are isolated, one off incidents, this spanned decades and permeated every franchise.  Every franchise decided it was in their best interest not to put the best possible team on the field because they didn't like black people.  While people love to lament what players like Gibson, Bell, Paige and others would have done if they'd gotten to spend their careers in the MLB, hardly anyone wants to point fingers at the people who systematically kept them out.  

In respect to #2, the owners binding together not to sign free agents while at the same time cutting their nose to spite their face and not making their teams better is egregious.  Again, not doing their best to win because they disliked a group of people.  

Yet these two items don't get talked about as being as bad as the Black Sox because...well, it's way easier to romance Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose.  It's easy to romance Shoeless Joe, the country bumpkin who couldn't read and was taken advantage of.  He's part myth, he's also part martyr.  It's easier to look at that one portrait of Cool Papa Bell and wonder how he'd have looked in a Cardinals uniform or a Dodgers uniform and what he could have done.

The owners are a largely a faceless bunch.  Sure, you get a Steinbrenner or a Marge Schott who are easily dislikable and don't mind making themselves seen but it's easier to aim downfield at a guy like Beltran, not so much a guy like Crane.  Yet it's my belief that the owners are clearly responsible for the two worst things that have happened in the games history, yet no one wants to talk about them in the same way we're talking about the Astros cheating scandal.  It's not as fun to hate owners who history has cast off to the wayside and has forgotten, yet did permanent damage to the game, careers and legacies.  Unfortunately, it's way easier to look at guys like Cora, Beltran, Hinch and say "OMG, WORST THING SINCE BLACK SOX!!!" when that's not remotely the case.

 

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Just now, Moose Milligan said:

And, IMO, this is not the worst thing since the Black Sox Scandal.  Let's get ahold of ourselves here.  

Two things:

  1. Systematic agreement between owners not to let black people play major league baseball
  2. Collusion between the owners in the mid 80s to keep salaries down amongst free agents

As to no. 1, of course you are right, it’s way worse than a mere cheating scandal.   But it’s really more a commentary on society at the time, rather than a black eye on baseball in particular.    I mean, the US armed forces weren’t integrated until a year after baseball was.  In many states, public schools weren’t integrated until 7+ years after MLB integrated.  Etc.

As to collusion, I think it’s morally at least as bad and quite arguably worse than the cheating scandal, but it didn’t cause fans to doubt whether the outcomes of games were fairly achieved.   That’s really what I’m getting at here.    The things you’re raising are really on a whole different spectrum.   

On the same spectrum I’m talking about is the steroids scandal.     
 

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