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3 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

And don't forget what dWAR is: defensive runs above/below average, plus positional adjustment.  Jeter was a shortstop, so he got a positional adjustment of about +8 runs per season.  So he's about 83 runs worse than average over his career after you account for being a shortstop and getting a fudge factor of +8 runs per season.

+20 is a pretty epic defensive season.  Jeter had three different years where bb-ref lists him as -20 to -30 runs above average.  Minus 20.  Defensively he was the bizarro Ozzie Smith.

I don't really think dWAR is the best metric of defense. I remember him being a very fundamentally sound shortstop; he just didn't have a ton of range.

He had -.5 dWAR in his age 39 and 40 seasons, if we want to use those stats. He wasn't incompetent.

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1 hour ago, Frobby said:

It’s ridiculous to say he wasn’t good.    He was an excellent player and his offense more than made up for his defense.    To be clear, his big problem on defense was limited range.    He was a relatively mistake free player.    It’s not like you watched Jeter and slapped your head over his defensive gaffes.    There were just a lot of balls that he couldn’t quite reach.    

Oh I am aware that his offense made up for his defense, he had I think what six all time in hits or something like that, but no way was he a good short stop, and certainly not in any “best” conversation.

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3 minutes ago, Philip said:

Oh I am aware that his offense made up for his defense, he had I think what six all time in hits or something like that, but no way was he a good short stop, and certainly not in any “best” conversation.

If Jeter was on the Brewers he would still be in the hall of fame for his offensive numbers, but he would get a lot more flack about his mediocre defense at SS. 

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5 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

If Jeter was on the Brewers he would still be in the hall of fame for his offensive numbers, but he would get a lot more flack about his mediocre defense at SS. 

He also wouldn't have been the face of MLB for almost 20 years. 

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12 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

If Jeter was on the Brewers he would still be in the hall of fame for his offensive numbers, but he would get a lot more flack about his mediocre defense at SS. 

If Jeter was on the Brewers he would have signed with the Yankees as a free agent.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Chewbacca Jr. said:

I don't really think dWAR is the best metric of defense. I remember him being a very fundamentally sound shortstop; he just didn't have a ton of range.

He had -.5 dWAR in his age 39 and 40 seasons, if we want to use those stats. He wasn't incompetent.

Negative 0.5 DWAR for a shortstop is really bad Negative 0.5 DWAR from a first baseman is good.

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1 minute ago, atomic said:

Negative 0.5 DWAR for a shortstop is really bad Negative 0.5 DWAR from a first baseman is good.

Correct.   But let’s be clear: every advanced metric showed Jeter to have poor range at SS.    Not just one.   By Rtot, he averaged -10/yr.    By Rdrs, he averaged -13/yr.   By UZR/150, he was -6.2.

I remember that one offseason BP did a study called “with you/without you.”    Basically, they looked at every pitcher who ever pitched a game when Jeter was playing SS, and looked at what percentage of the outs recorded behind the pitcher involved the SS.    Then they looked at all the games involving those same pitchers, during their entire careers, when Jeter was not the SS.    (So, for example, this would include all of Mike Mussina’s games with the Orioles, as well as any rare Yankee games when Jeter wasn’t playing.)    What they found was, when Jeter wasn’t playing, the percentage of outs involving the SS behind all these pitchers was markedly higher.   Yet further proof of Jeter’s limited range.  

So, Jeter’s defensive limitations are not really in serious question.   But when Philip says, “Jeter was not a good shortstop,” what he means is “Jeter was not a good defensive shortstop.”    Because overall, he was a far better offensive shortstop than average, and as a result he was overall way better than the average shortstop, when you consider offense and defense combined.    I’d certainly love to have a player of Jeter’s quality be the Orioles’ shortstop for the next 20 years, even if I do have to watch him fail to reach 10-20 grounders a year that the average shortstop would get to.
 

 

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22 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Correct.   But let’s be clear: every advanced metric showed Jeter to have poor range at SS.    Not just one.   By Rtot, he averaged -10/yr.    By Rdrs, he averaged -13/yr.   By UZR/150, he was -6.2.

I remember that one offseason BP did a study called “with you/without you.”    Basically, they looked at every pitcher who ever pitched a game when Jeter was playing SS, and looked at what percentage of the outs recorded behind the pitcher involved the SS.    Then they looked at all the games involving those same pitchers, during their entire careers, when Jeter was not the SS.    (So, for example, this would include all of Mike Mussina’s games with the Orioles, as well as any rare Yankee games when Jeter wasn’t playing.)    What they found was, when Jeter wasn’t playing, the percentage of outs involving the SS behind all these pitchers was markedly higher.   Yet further proof of Jeter’s limited range.  

So, Jeter’s defensive limitations are not really in serious question.   But when Philip says, “Jeter was not a good shortstop,” what he means is “Jeter was not a good defensive shortstop.”    Because overall, he was a far better offensive shortstop than average, and as a result he was overall way better than the average shortstop, when you consider offense and defense combined.    I’d certainly love to have a player of Jeter’s quality be the Orioles’ shortstop for the next 20 years, even if I do have to watch him fail to reach 10-20 grounders a year that the average shortstop would get to.
 

 

One thing I like about you, frobby, Is that you are always fair. I appreciate your comment. Having said that, there is no doubt that Jeter is in the Hall of Fame because of his hitting. Not because of his defense. There is also no doubt, none at all, that he is being anointed as some kind of demigod because he was a Yankee, and not because he was a great player. Yes he was a great hitter, yes he deserves a spot, blah blah blah but he was not a good shortstop, and when when I speak about shortstop yes, I am talking about defensively.

He would be in the Hall of Fame, no matter which team he played for, but if he played for any other team, he would not be treated as if he can cure cancer with a touch.

The constant adulation of Yankees just because they are Yankees gets my goat.

and FWIW, it seems he’s clueless about how to run a baseball team, if his work with the Marlins is any indication.

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1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

If Jeter was on the Brewers he would have signed with the Yankees as a free agent.

But the real question: would he have been a True YankeeTM? I'd guess no, with only one ring (assuming he went over in 2002). And would ARod have had to move to 3rd if Jeter had only been there a couple years?

 

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1 hour ago, Philip said:

One thing I like about you, frobby, Is that you are always fair. I appreciate your comment. Having said that, there is no doubt that Jeter is in the Hall of Fame because of his hitting. Not because of his defense. There is also no doubt, none at all, that he is being anointed as some kind of demigod because he was a Yankee, and not because he was a great player. Yes he was a great hitter, yes he deserves a spot, blah blah blah but he was not a good shortstop, and when when I speak about shortstop yes, I am talking about defensively.

He would be in the Hall of Fame, no matter which team he played for, but if he played for any other team, he would not be treated as if he can cure cancer with a touch.

The constant adulation of Yankees just because they are Yankees gets my goat.

and FWIW, it seems he’s clueless about how to run a baseball team, if his work with the Marlins is any indication.

And that's why I'm happy Jeter didn't get unanimously voted into the HOF. Hearing all the Yankees fans whine about it amuses me, it's like the spoiled rich kid complaining because he got the wrong colored Porsche for his birthday. And Jeter's career WAR is virtually the same as Larry Walker's, and he had to wait nearly a decade to get elected. 

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31 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

And that's why I'm happy Jeter didn't get unanimously voted into the HOF. Hearing all the Yankees fans whine about it amuses me, it's like the spoiled rich kid complaining because he got the wrong colored Porsche for his birthday. And Jeter's career WAR is virtually the same as Larry Walker's, and he had to wait nearly a decade to get elected. 

Well, I feel the same way.   But what it boils down to is that Jeter was a star player who was on a team that won four World Series in five years, which is an amazing team feat no matter how much money they spent to do it.    Even after that, he was in the playoffs year after year.    Almost no players can say that.   So that rubs off on him.   

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5 hours ago, Philip said:

One thing I like about you, frobby, Is that you are always fair. I appreciate your comment. Having said that, there is no doubt that Jeter is in the Hall of Fame because of his hitting. Not because of his defense. There is also no doubt, none at all, that he is being anointed as some kind of demigod because he was a Yankee, and not because he was a great player. Yes he was a great hitter, yes he deserves a spot, blah blah blah but he was not a good shortstop, and when when I speak about shortstop yes, I am talking about defensively.

He would be in the Hall of Fame, no matter which team he played for, but if he played for any other team, he would not be treated as if he can cure cancer with a touch.

The constant adulation of Yankees just because they are Yankees gets my goat.

and FWIW, it seems he’s clueless about how to run a baseball team, if his work with the Marlins is any indication.

That’s like saying Tom Brady gets such adulation and  if he played for the Browns he wouldn’t. Jeter is the all time hit leader in the post season and it isn’t even close.  I don’t think anyone said he was the best player of all time but he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

I am not sure what your point is.  We don’t need to find fault with everyone.  I read an article recently that Predicted he will be the last baseball player to transcend the sport.  His 3467 hits, his .310 average, his .377 OBP and his 200 Post Season hits as a shortstop all make him a Hall of Famer.

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16 hours ago, GuidoSarducci said:

 

Didn't Ted Williams admit he wouldn't have hit .400 if he had to play in the league after 1960?

 

 

He still maintains that to this day.  That is when his lawyer brings him out for some fresh air and a comment.

 

Uv0JQvV.gif 

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8 hours ago, atomic said:

That’s like saying Tom Brady gets such adulation and  if he played for the Browns he wouldn’t. Jeter is the all time hit leader in the post season and it isn’t even close.  I don’t think anyone said he was the best player of all time but he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

I am not sure what your point is.  We don’t need to find fault with everyone.  I read an article recently that Predicted he will be the last baseball player to transcend the sport.  His 3467 hits, his .310 average, his .377 OBP and his 200 Post Season hits as a shortstop all make him a Hall of Famer.

So? My point was clear. I don’t need to restate it.

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